5 ms·

Amusing, but the entire point of a greeting at this time of year is based on a particular culture and history. Its not purely astronomical, and its significance

Amusing, but the entire point of a greeting at this time of year is based on a particular culture and history. Its not purely astronomical, and its significance is reversed in northern and southern hemispheres and is not all that relevant in the tropics.

roebk 2y ago
Happy Solsthelion!
saghm 2y ago
FWIW the page specifically describes it as the "December Solstice" and has a footnote for that mentioning the specific seasons for each hemisphere. I imagine the author is well aware of how the event varies by geography. As for what the "entire point" of a greeting is, I'd argue that the "entire point" is a bit of a philosophical question that depends on what you think it means for something to be "the point". Maybe a few thousand years from now, instead of seemingly ignoring the culture and history you refer to, Solsthelion will just be seen as another chapter in the history of the greetings used during this time of year, just like the cultural reference in one common greeting you might encounter this time of year might have seemed transgressive back when it debuted to people fond of previous cultural traditions during the same part of the year.
- graemep 2y ago
  > has a footnote for that mentioning the specific seasons for each hemisphere. It mentions winter and summer, seasons that do not exist for a lot of the world. For example, in South Asia the main seasonal variation is the monsoon rains.
  - lentil_soup 2y ago
    In terms of weather you're right, but those areas will still have the shortest/longest day on the solstice even if the change is relatively small.
    - graemep 2y ago
      If you are right on the equator, then you would not have any chance. Close to the equator a hardly noticeable change. I have lived near the equator (7° north, mostly) and the change in day length (about half an hour between longest and shortest days) is not noticeable.
adrian_b 2y ago
While what you say is true now, in the distant past in all the cultures that had celebrations or holidays around this time of the year their origin had been purely astronomical, in celebrations of the Winter Solstice. The reinterpretations of the Solstice celebrations to fit in various religions and the shift in the calendar from the true astronomical event have occurred much later. By the time of Julius Cesar, after his calendar reform, the Winter Solstice occurred on the 25th of December, which is the reason for having Christmas on this day. The reason why Christmas is now shifted by 3 days from the solstice is that the Gregorian calendar reform has not restored the calendar of the time corresponding to the start of the Christian era, but the calendar of the 4th century (when the procedure for selecting the date for Easter has been established), and the calendar of the 4th century was shifted by these 3 days. Before Julius Cesar, the Roman calendar shifted a lot from year to year in comparison with the astronomical calendar. It is likely that when first established, the 1st of March (their New Year) of the Roman calendar occurred on the Spring Equinox, but then it has drifted a lot. After the Julian calendar reform, the solstices and equinoxes occurred around the 25th of their months, then they have drifted away until the Gregorian reform has set them around the 22th of their months.
- cies 2y ago
  > all the cultures that had celebrations or holidays around this time of the year I expect this not to be true... Cultures with only a moon calendar (ancient Arabs) do not even have the means to express the date!
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    That is why I have qualified "cultures" with "that had ...", a condition that can be true only for the cultures with solar calendars or mixed solar-lunar calendars.
  - kadoban 2y ago
    You don't need a calendar to have seasonal celebrations. I doubt there was ~ever any society that couldn't tell you approximately where they were in the year anyway. All it takes is making marks on literally anything, one per day, or having a decent memory. What society doesn't have at least one person doing that?

roebk 2y ago

Happy Solsthelion!

saghm 2y ago

FWIW the page specifically describes it as the "December Solstice" and has a footnote for that mentioning the specific seasons for each hemisphere. I imagine the author is well aware of how the event varies by geography. As for what the "entire point" of a greeting is, I'd argue that the "entire point" is a bit of a philosophical question that depends on what you think it means for something to be "the point". Maybe a few thousand years from now, instead of seemingly ignoring the culture and history you refer to, Solsthelion will just be seen as another chapter in the history of the greetings used during this time of year, just like the cultural reference in one common greeting you might encounter this time of year might have seemed transgressive back when it debuted to people fond of previous cultural traditions during the same part of the year.

graemep 2y ago
> has a footnote for that mentioning the specific seasons for each hemisphere. It mentions winter and summer, seasons that do not exist for a lot of the world. For example, in South Asia the main seasonal variation is the monsoon rains.
- lentil_soup 2y ago
  In terms of weather you're right, but those areas will still have the shortest/longest day on the solstice even if the change is relatively small.
  - graemep 2y ago
    If you are right on the equator, then you would not have any chance. Close to the equator a hardly noticeable change. I have lived near the equator (7° north, mostly) and the change in day length (about half an hour between longest and shortest days) is not noticeable.

adrian_b 2y ago

While what you say is true now, in the distant past in all the cultures that had celebrations or holidays around this time of the year their origin had been purely astronomical, in celebrations of the Winter Solstice. The reinterpretations of the Solstice celebrations to fit in various religions and the shift in the calendar from the true astronomical event have occurred much later. By the time of Julius Cesar, after his calendar reform, the Winter Solstice occurred on the 25th of December, which is the reason for having Christmas on this day. The reason why Christmas is now shifted by 3 days from the solstice is that the Gregorian calendar reform has not restored the calendar of the time corresponding to the start of the Christian era, but the calendar of the 4th century (when the procedure for selecting the date for Easter has been established), and the calendar of the 4th century was shifted by these 3 days. Before Julius Cesar, the Roman calendar shifted a lot from year to year in comparison with the astronomical calendar. It is likely that when first established, the 1st of March (their New Year) of the Roman calendar occurred on the Spring Equinox, but then it has drifted a lot. After the Julian calendar reform, the solstices and equinoxes occurred around the 25th of their months, then they have drifted away until the Gregorian reform has set them around the 22th of their months.

cies 2y ago
> all the cultures that had celebrations or holidays around this time of the year I expect this not to be true... Cultures with only a moon calendar (ancient Arabs) do not even have the means to express the date!
- adrian_b 2y ago
  That is why I have qualified "cultures" with "that had ...", a condition that can be true only for the cultures with solar calendars or mixed solar-lunar calendars.
- kadoban 2y ago
  You don't need a calendar to have seasonal celebrations. I doubt there was ~ever any society that couldn't tell you approximately where they were in the year anyway. All it takes is making marks on literally anything, one per day, or having a decent memory. What society doesn't have at least one person doing that?