4 ms·

I have little desire to defend Smotrich (nor would Israelis, as his extremist party is currently polling at ~3% support), but even he wouldn't dare claim suppor

I have little desire to defend Smotrich (nor would Israelis, as his extremist party is currently polling at ~3% support), but even he wouldn't dare claim support for something as far-flung as the alleged "Greater Israel" ideology. On the contrary, after Smotrich was merely perceived to lend support for expansionism, having spoken at a conference behind a graphic reminiscent of the Irgun's emblem depicting the entire Mandate for Palestine, it triggered a minor diplomatic incident, and the Israeli government immediately apologized to Jordan and clarified that Israel is committed to maintaining its peace agreement with Jordan. But all of this is a smokescreen: Israel is a democracy desperately suing for peace with its neighbors, and at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose). There is no popular support for attacking or invading Israel's neighbors within the country, and there has never been such a policy in the country's history.

refulgentis 2y ago
This is an insightful and correct comment. Up front, I am a fervent Zionist, with just a personal musing: Accumulation of many discussions post 10/7 made me reevaluate how I think, and thus talk about, the greater Israeli political factors. It's unconvincing when framed in terms of more rabid politicians with little popular support. At the end of the day, people correctly perceive that this isn't a temporary political situation, even when they don't know a Smotrich from a Smeagol. If they do, it's unconvincing because these people are the government, and hold the levers of power to implement the vision regardless of what percentage of voters back it up specifically. To wit, Ben-Gvir proudly announcing new settlements in Golan Heights.
bhouston 2y ago
Again here is both Haaretz and Times of Israel articles that are discussing Greater Israel ideology: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42546044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42546044 You can continue to say it is far flung or a conspiracy but apparently Israeli newspapers disagree with you. Honestly who am I to believe? Random anonymous commenter on hacker news or many articles in Israeli newspapers written by journalists? I’ll go with Israeli newspapers and real journalists.
farseer 2y ago
The 1956 Sinai campaign is a counter example of how opportunism has always trumped any desire for peace. If it weren't for Eisenhower, they'd had gotten away with it as well. Source: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-12-09/ty-article/.premium/how-israel-gave-up-the-idea-of-annexing-sinai-and-gaza/0000017f-f374-d497-a1ff-f3f48afd0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-12-09/ty-article/.p... The current Syria campaign is another counter example. Look at how they have systematically captured all water resources East of the Golan heights. Whoever is in charge is suing for expansion, not peace. Source: https://syria.liveuamap.com/ https://syria.liveuamap.com/
aprilthird2021 2y ago
> at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose) Israel started the Six Day War claiming that the closing of straits was a grounds for war, this justifying their first strike, but they have had Gaza under siege and blockade for years, and don't consider it a grounds for war when they do it to others. Just one small point
aguaviva 2y ago
Israel is a democracy desperately suing for peace with its neighbors, and at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose). '56, '67 and '82 were all unambiguously started by Israel. It is also currently engaged in an effort, which it initiated on December 9th, to expand its illegally annexed territorial holdings in Syria as we speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Syria#/media/File:2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Syria.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Syria...

refulgentis 2y ago

This is an insightful and correct comment. Up front, I am a fervent Zionist, with just a personal musing: Accumulation of many discussions post 10/7 made me reevaluate how I think, and thus talk about, the greater Israeli political factors. It's unconvincing when framed in terms of more rabid politicians with little popular support. At the end of the day, people correctly perceive that this isn't a temporary political situation, even when they don't know a Smotrich from a Smeagol. If they do, it's unconvincing because these people are the government, and hold the levers of power to implement the vision regardless of what percentage of voters back it up specifically. To wit, Ben-Gvir proudly announcing new settlements in Golan Heights.

bhouston 2y ago

Again here is both Haaretz and Times of Israel articles that are discussing Greater Israel ideology: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42546044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42546044 You can continue to say it is far flung or a conspiracy but apparently Israeli newspapers disagree with you. Honestly who am I to believe? Random anonymous commenter on hacker news or many articles in Israeli newspapers written by journalists? I’ll go with Israeli newspapers and real journalists.

farseer 2y ago

The 1956 Sinai campaign is a counter example of how opportunism has always trumped any desire for peace. If it weren't for Eisenhower, they'd had gotten away with it as well. Source: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-12-09/ty-article/.premium/how-israel-gave-up-the-idea-of-annexing-sinai-and-gaza/0000017f-f374-d497-a1ff-f3f48afd0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-12-09/ty-article/.p... The current Syria campaign is another counter example. Look at how they have systematically captured all water resources East of the Golan heights. Whoever is in charge is suing for expansion, not peace. Source: https://syria.liveuamap.com/ https://syria.liveuamap.com/

aprilthird2021 2y ago

> at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose) Israel started the Six Day War claiming that the closing of straits was a grounds for war, this justifying their first strike, but they have had Gaza under siege and blockade for years, and don't consider it a grounds for war when they do it to others. Just one small point

aguaviva 2y ago

Israel is a democracy desperately suing for peace with its neighbors, and at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose). '56, '67 and '82 were all unambiguously started by Israel. It is also currently engaged in an effort, which it initiated on December 9th, to expand its illegally annexed territorial holdings in Syria as we speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Syria#/media/File:2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Syria.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Syria...