4 ms·

Controversial, as in almost certainly made up anti-Israel propaganda? Ryan McBeth presents his thoughtful analysis and debunking here: https://www.youtube.com/

Controversial, as in almost certainly made up anti-Israel propaganda? Ryan McBeth presents his thoughtful analysis and debunking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HWJ2v0R6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HWJ2v0R6k

bhouston 2y ago
I didn't say it was an official patch. Settler ambitions are real though: Settlement movement for Southern Lebanon: https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-southern-lebanon-uri-tzafon-israel https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-sou.... Unclear if this will happen, depends if Israel actually does withdraw fully or not. Resettlement movement for Gaza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_.... This is likely to happen on Trumps watch in Northern Gaza. The General's Plan is clearing out Northern Gaza of Arabs as we speak. Permanent annexation of Golan Heights, and more land taken in Syria for the "foreseeable future": https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-netanyahu-1.7413045 https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-neta...
- settrans 2y ago
  The alleged patch suggests that there is some Israeli ambition to conquer all of the Levant. There is no such Israeli settler movement. As far as Lebanon, there is no mainstream support whatsoever to settle north of the Blue Line. The article you linked describes the idea as "far-right". I would invite you to talk to an Israeli and ask them what they think about Israel annexing Lebanon. Gaza is entirely different. There was a centuries-old Jewish presence in Gaza until 1929, when the Jews were ethnically cleansed by an Arab pogrom. That same Jewish-owned land was resettled again in 1946, but the Egyptians ethnically cleansed Gaza again in 1948, and kept Gaza Judenrein until 1967. Israel decided to pull all Jews out of Gaza again in a bid for peace in 2005, but of course we all know how that turned out.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    It is an ideology that is gaining popularity in Israel though. I am regurgitating what Israel's own Finance minister is saying. "In an interview for the documentary, In Israel: Ministers of Chaos, produced by European public service channel, Arte, [Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel] Smotrich claimed that Israel would expand “little by little” and eventually encompass all Palestinian territories as well as Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia." https://javafilms.fr/film/israel-ministers-of-chaos/ https://javafilms.fr/film/israel-ministers-of-chaos/ This is a minister who is very powerful in the current Israeli government. To dismiss this is pretty weird. He doesn't hide his ambitions. I am actually agreeing with him that this is likely to try to happen least for the foreseeable future. The trends point in this direction.
    - settrans 2y ago
      I have little desire to defend Smotrich (nor would Israelis, as his extremist party is currently polling at ~3% support), but even he wouldn't dare claim support for something as far-flung as the alleged "Greater Israel" ideology. On the contrary, after Smotrich was merely perceived to lend support for expansionism, having spoken at a conference behind a graphic reminiscent of the Irgun's emblem depicting the entire Mandate for Palestine, it triggered a minor diplomatic incident, and the Israeli government immediately apologized to Jordan and clarified that Israel is committed to maintaining its peace agreement with Jordan. But all of this is a smokescreen: Israel is a democracy desperately suing for peace with its neighbors, and at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose). There is no popular support for attacking or invading Israel's neighbors within the country, and there has never been such a policy in the country's history.
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        This is an insightful and correct comment. Up front, I am a fervent Zionist, with just a personal musing: Accumulation of many discussions post 10/7 made me reevaluate how I think, and thus talk about, the greater Israeli political factors. It's unconvincing when framed in terms of more rabid politicians with little popular support. At the end of the day, people correctly perceive that this isn't a temporary political situation, even when they don't know a Smotrich from a Smeagol. If they do, it's unconvincing because these people are the government, and hold the levers of power to implement the vision regardless of what percentage of voters back it up specifically. To wit, Ben-Gvir proudly announcing new settlements in Golan Heights.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
The patch may or may not be made up, but the Greater Israel ambitions are beyond dispute
volleyball 2y ago
Why is the current finance minister of Israel engaging in "almost certainly made up anti-Israel propaganda"? https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-seeks-to-calm-waters-with-jordan-after-racist-extremist-speech-by-smotrich/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-seeks-to-calm-waters-wi... The article talks about his a speech he made in Paris in March of 2023 in which he calls Palestinians a made-up people. The podium he is speaking from features a map of Israel that includes Jordanian and Syrian territory. Israel is literally invading and annexing Syrian territory (which the media is playing down as 'buffer zones'
- edanm 2y ago
  Because to (imo) Israel's great shame, its current finance minister is a right-wing extremist with very little support among the electorate, but unfortunately a very elevated position in the government because of Netanyahu's political necessities. His view doesn't come close to representing the majority Israeli view; I'm fairly certain that in most surveys these days he gets literally 0 seats in the Israeli Knesset.
  - siltcakes 2y ago
    It's not accurate to say that his views are not represented by mainstream Israeli citizens. Most Israelis think the attack on Gaza has either been justified or not gone far enough! Israeli leadership very much represents the views of the majority in Israel (and Zionists outside of Israel). https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-...
    - edanm 2y ago
      I was referring to his views on annexing Gaza, the West Bank or other views. You're asking a different question. In addition, that survey is from half a year ago. Surveys today show a majority of Israelis wanting a ceasefire-for-hostages deal.
      - 2y ago
mightyham 2y ago
Israel's finance minister gave a speech in front of a greater Israel flag last year. https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-greater-israel-map-palestinians https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-gre...

bhouston 2y ago

I didn't say it was an official patch. Settler ambitions are real though: Settlement movement for Southern Lebanon: https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-southern-lebanon-uri-tzafon-israel https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-sou.... Unclear if this will happen, depends if Israel actually does withdraw fully or not. Resettlement movement for Gaza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_resettlement_.... This is likely to happen on Trumps watch in Northern Gaza. The General's Plan is clearing out Northern Gaza of Arabs as we speak. Permanent annexation of Golan Heights, and more land taken in Syria for the "foreseeable future": https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-netanyahu-1.7413045 https://www.cbc.ca/news/israel-occupy-buffer-zone-syria-neta...

settrans 2y ago
The alleged patch suggests that there is some Israeli ambition to conquer all of the Levant. There is no such Israeli settler movement. As far as Lebanon, there is no mainstream support whatsoever to settle north of the Blue Line. The article you linked describes the idea as "far-right". I would invite you to talk to an Israeli and ask them what they think about Israel annexing Lebanon. Gaza is entirely different. There was a centuries-old Jewish presence in Gaza until 1929, when the Jews were ethnically cleansed by an Arab pogrom. That same Jewish-owned land was resettled again in 1946, but the Egyptians ethnically cleansed Gaza again in 1948, and kept Gaza Judenrein until 1967. Israel decided to pull all Jews out of Gaza again in a bid for peace in 2005, but of course we all know how that turned out.
- bhouston 2y ago
  It is an ideology that is gaining popularity in Israel though. I am regurgitating what Israel's own Finance minister is saying. "In an interview for the documentary, In Israel: Ministers of Chaos, produced by European public service channel, Arte, [Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel] Smotrich claimed that Israel would expand “little by little” and eventually encompass all Palestinian territories as well as Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia." https://javafilms.fr/film/israel-ministers-of-chaos/ https://javafilms.fr/film/israel-ministers-of-chaos/ This is a minister who is very powerful in the current Israeli government. To dismiss this is pretty weird. He doesn't hide his ambitions. I am actually agreeing with him that this is likely to try to happen least for the foreseeable future. The trends point in this direction.
  - settrans 2y ago
    I have little desire to defend Smotrich (nor would Israelis, as his extremist party is currently polling at ~3% support), but even he wouldn't dare claim support for something as far-flung as the alleged "Greater Israel" ideology. On the contrary, after Smotrich was merely perceived to lend support for expansionism, having spoken at a conference behind a graphic reminiscent of the Irgun's emblem depicting the entire Mandate for Palestine, it triggered a minor diplomatic incident, and the Israeli government immediately apologized to Jordan and clarified that Israel is committed to maintaining its peace agreement with Jordan. But all of this is a smokescreen: Israel is a democracy desperately suing for peace with its neighbors, and at no point in history has initiated a war to expand its borders (or for any other purpose). There is no popular support for attacking or invading Israel's neighbors within the country, and there has never been such a policy in the country's history.
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      This is an insightful and correct comment. Up front, I am a fervent Zionist, with just a personal musing: Accumulation of many discussions post 10/7 made me reevaluate how I think, and thus talk about, the greater Israeli political factors. It's unconvincing when framed in terms of more rabid politicians with little popular support. At the end of the day, people correctly perceive that this isn't a temporary political situation, even when they don't know a Smotrich from a Smeagol. If they do, it's unconvincing because these people are the government, and hold the levers of power to implement the vision regardless of what percentage of voters back it up specifically. To wit, Ben-Gvir proudly announcing new settlements in Golan Heights.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

The patch may or may not be made up, but the Greater Israel ambitions are beyond dispute

volleyball 2y ago

Why is the current finance minister of Israel engaging in "almost certainly made up anti-Israel propaganda"? https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-seeks-to-calm-waters-with-jordan-after-racist-extremist-speech-by-smotrich/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-seeks-to-calm-waters-wi... The article talks about his a speech he made in Paris in March of 2023 in which he calls Palestinians a made-up people. The podium he is speaking from features a map of Israel that includes Jordanian and Syrian territory. Israel is literally invading and annexing Syrian territory (which the media is playing down as 'buffer zones'

edanm 2y ago
Because to (imo) Israel's great shame, its current finance minister is a right-wing extremist with very little support among the electorate, but unfortunately a very elevated position in the government because of Netanyahu's political necessities. His view doesn't come close to representing the majority Israeli view; I'm fairly certain that in most surveys these days he gets literally 0 seats in the Israeli Knesset.
- siltcakes 2y ago
  It's not accurate to say that his views are not represented by mainstream Israeli citizens. Most Israelis think the attack on Gaza has either been justified or not gone far enough! Israeli leadership very much represents the views of the majority in Israel (and Zionists outside of Israel). https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-...
  - edanm 2y ago
    I was referring to his views on annexing Gaza, the West Bank or other views. You're asking a different question. In addition, that survey is from half a year ago. Surveys today show a majority of Israelis wanting a ceasefire-for-hostages deal.
    - 2y ago

mightyham 2y ago

Israel's finance minister gave a speech in front of a greater Israel flag last year. https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-greater-israel-map-palestinians https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-gre...