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Here in Oz the banning of disposable nicotine vapes has led to an increase in organised crime activity. Schoolkids are getting the vapes without any problems.

Here in Oz the banning of disposable nicotine vapes has led to an increase in organised crime activity. Schoolkids are getting the vapes without any problems. Great idea, but poorly implemented. I'll be interested to see Belgium avoids the issues we're having here in Australia.

Namidairo 2y ago
For those not aware, they are most likely referring to an ongoing "tobacco war" among organised crime groups in Australia, with tobacconists becoming the targets of many arson attacks. Obviously the illicit tobacco trade is a large/primary driver of this, but illicit vapes are also becoming a part of their business.
- exhilaration 2y ago
  with tobacconists becoming the targets of many arson attacks Are you saying that legitimate tobacco stores are being burned down by illicit tobacco traffickers? To eliminate competition?
  - hugh-avherald 2y ago
    More they are trying to intimidate rival gangs, or extort protection money.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jsmeaton 2y ago
    They’re being attacked both for refusing to work with gangs or for working with a rival gang.
  - inkyoto 2y ago
    «many arson attacks» is a hyperbole. There have been few isolated incidents of the tobacconist stores having been set ablaze, but it does not equate to, e.g. east coast Australian capital cities, being engulfed in putrid smouldering fires emanating from the said tobacconist shops. Australian government introduced a (rushed) law in July this year that outlawed street sales of vapes and obligated local pharmacies to sell the officially licensed vapes instead, which has caused a uproar and a revolt on behalf of the Pharmacist Guild who bluntly refused to stock and distribute the vapes. The pharmacies that are not the guild members have made decisions at their own discretion. The drama is still unfolding.
    - ramblin_prose 2y ago
      A few isolated incidents? There have been more than 70 arson attacks on tobacco stores and other businesses believed to be involved in the sale of illicit tobacco since March 2023, according to the Victoria police assistant commissioner Martin O’Brien.
      - inkyoto 2y ago
        Very well. You are correct, and I will admit my own ignorance with respect to the situation in Victoria as it appears to be wildly (in the literal sense of the word) different, and I used the NSW situational numbers. ABC[0] reports following numbers for arson attacks on tobacconists across Australian states: NSW: 14 Victoria: 130 Queensland: 30 South Australia: 12 Western Australia: 8 Whilst 14 (NSW) is more than a few, the order of magnitude difference compared with 130 (VIC) is a bewildering revelation, indeed, especially considering that NSW has a larger population. I do not know what makes NSW and VIC so different with respect to the matter at hand. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-29/two-men-arrested-over-tobacconist-arson-attacks/104664268 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-29/two-men-arrested-over...
    - lmpdev 2y ago
      I don’t think many is a hyperbole, it’s surpassed 100 arson attacks in Victoria alone…
  - teractiveodular 2y ago
    Australian police: "We're not saying all tobacconists are linked with the sale of illicit tobacco, but what we are saying is that people are being targeted, businesses are being targeted because the organisers police allege are linked to the sale of illicit tobacco are simply standing over them." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-15/tweed-tobacconist-ram-raid-ballina-arson-police-investigate/104604202 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-15/tweed-tobacconist-ram...
    - Thorrez 2y ago
      I have a hard time understanding that sentence. Organizers of what? The businesses, or illicit tobacco? What does standing over mean? It's not clear to me why standing over would be a motivation for attacks.
      - com 2y ago
        Organisers of the threats to others. To “stand over” is a verb meaning roughly to “threaten, with menace”. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the party or parties that have undertaken the attacks.
  - antiatheist 2y ago
    It's multiple lebanese family/gangs (Haddara family and others) vs biker gangs - as far as I can tell from news reports. Both these parties run tobacco stores in many states - licensing was/is non-existant or minimal, although they are now increasing the overview and requirements in states that were lax. These stores were mostly branded as vape/convenience stores until the recent regulation changes, now they often sell american candy and various random things along with local gov sanctioned cigarettes ($50/pack minimum) or the imported packs ($15-25 pack) - you can guess which one they pretty much exclusively sell. Asians (Vietnamese/Chinese) are also selling the imported cigarettes out of their own branded stores and also some of the big chain tobacco stores (TSG, Cignall). There have been dozens of arson attacks against the Lebanese and Biker stores over the last few years, supposedly over territory and payments. A lebanese nearby had its security facade destroyed and was torched black the day after last years Christmas. The asians don't seem to be involved in the arson attacks, they may be importing it as many of the packs are korean/chinese, but unsure as also eastern european and english brands are available. The government engineered this situation with its ridiculous taxation policy, it was effective up to a point but it's becoming reminiscent of the era of alcohol prohibition in the USA.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      $50 a pack? Yeah at those prices you can bet a black market crops up. IMO this is only causing more problems. It won't put people off smoking because cheaper illegal alternatives arrive and it will create heavy crime syndicates.
Gigachad 2y ago
Had they made reusable vapes legal this wouldn’t have been an issue.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  Reusable vapes are beyond commonplace in the US and there's still a huge problem with disposables. For kids, they're expensive to purchase, expensive to replace when mom/dad take it away, and much harder to conceal from teachers and parents. It's harder to swap flavors and such, too. Really, the issue is that public officials and police don't care. It took 3-4 years for NYC to start doing something about the thousands of illegal smoke shops.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    They're only going to be expensive if they're the "premium" option. If reusable is the only option, then these $5 basic reusable vapes I see in google will go into stores everywhere on the same shelves that used to have disposables. They're small too. The overhead of a charging circuit and a refillable or removable chamber is not much.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    I know people who are grown adults who still buy the disposable vapes. You save zero money of course since they charge more than the given amount when you don't have to get the battery. I have no clue why they do it. I think part of it is psychological, like "oh I don't use the vape much I won't get myself an actual battery," then three beers in they are running across the street to the smoke shop for a disposable.
- bogantech 2y ago
  They wouldn't want to harm the profits of their friends big tobacco and the tax the govt get from ciggies. If they cared about health you'd be able to get Snus too
  - ajmurmann 2y ago
    If it's about taxes why not impose a tax on ecigs?
KennyBlanken 2y ago
> Here in Oz the banning of disposable nicotine vapes has led to an increase in organised crime activity. That organized crime already existed and this is just one of a dozen or so income streams for them. Hard drugs, human trafficking, and money laundering are probably orders of magnitude more profitable. Also: people get murdered all the time, despite it being illegal. Clearly the law isn't working, so let's make murder legal! /s Oh, and legalizing weed didn't do jack shit about dealers selling weed; the dealers are much cheaper, provide better service, and often better product (well, except the illicit stuff is likely to have much higher pesticide content.)
- Duwensatzaj 2y ago
  > Oh, and legalizing weed didn't do jack shit about dealers selling weed This isn’t universal. Oregon estimates roughly 80% of marijuana purchases are through legal sources nowadays. The real issue the state sees now is apparently illegal grow farms to supply other states that haven’t legalized or where the taxes are too high. Source: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/14/oregon-marijuana-legalization-black-market-enforcement-527012 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/14/oregon-mar...
  - Spivak 2y ago
    People really don't want to believe that "just make it legal" actually works for some reason. There's primary and secondary industry in organized crime and cutting off the primary starves the secondary. A drug policy that makes it so that nobody who does party drugs has contact with a dealer breaks the entire supply chain because there's no outside money coming in.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      "just make it legal" has unintended consequences. The cartels, faced with the loss of income from illegally selling now-legal weed didn't starve. they didn't go "oh, hey, I guess we should stop being criminals". No, they pivoted to heroin which turned into dealing fentanyl with disastrous results for the US. We'll keep losing the war on drugs until we start fighting it with community assistance programs and jobs and houses and doctors and therapists.
brenainn 2y ago
The ban hasn't really changed much on the crime side of things. Nicotine vapes were already illegal and they continue to import them through the same channels. The organised crime is primarily tobacco. It's low risk and poorly enforced, and probably very high margins where a pack of Chinese or counterfeit cigarettes is resold for $10 to $20 or so. Vapes and nicotine pouches are part of that too but I would wager tobacco is moved in significantly higher volumes.
golemiprague 2y ago
[dead]
sensanaty 2y ago
Whether ecigs were legal or not, presumably kids would've had to go black market anyways?

Namidairo 2y ago

For those not aware, they are most likely referring to an ongoing "tobacco war" among organised crime groups in Australia, with tobacconists becoming the targets of many arson attacks. Obviously the illicit tobacco trade is a large/primary driver of this, but illicit vapes are also becoming a part of their business.

exhilaration 2y ago
with tobacconists becoming the targets of many arson attacks Are you saying that legitimate tobacco stores are being burned down by illicit tobacco traffickers? To eliminate competition?
- hugh-avherald 2y ago
  More they are trying to intimidate rival gangs, or extort protection money.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jsmeaton 2y ago
  They’re being attacked both for refusing to work with gangs or for working with a rival gang.
- inkyoto 2y ago
  «many arson attacks» is a hyperbole. There have been few isolated incidents of the tobacconist stores having been set ablaze, but it does not equate to, e.g. east coast Australian capital cities, being engulfed in putrid smouldering fires emanating from the said tobacconist shops. Australian government introduced a (rushed) law in July this year that outlawed street sales of vapes and obligated local pharmacies to sell the officially licensed vapes instead, which has caused a uproar and a revolt on behalf of the Pharmacist Guild who bluntly refused to stock and distribute the vapes. The pharmacies that are not the guild members have made decisions at their own discretion. The drama is still unfolding.
  - ramblin_prose 2y ago
    A few isolated incidents? There have been more than 70 arson attacks on tobacco stores and other businesses believed to be involved in the sale of illicit tobacco since March 2023, according to the Victoria police assistant commissioner Martin O’Brien.
    - inkyoto 2y ago
      Very well. You are correct, and I will admit my own ignorance with respect to the situation in Victoria as it appears to be wildly (in the literal sense of the word) different, and I used the NSW situational numbers. ABC[0] reports following numbers for arson attacks on tobacconists across Australian states: NSW: 14 Victoria: 130 Queensland: 30 South Australia: 12 Western Australia: 8 Whilst 14 (NSW) is more than a few, the order of magnitude difference compared with 130 (VIC) is a bewildering revelation, indeed, especially considering that NSW has a larger population. I do not know what makes NSW and VIC so different with respect to the matter at hand. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-29/two-men-arrested-over-tobacconist-arson-attacks/104664268 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-29/two-men-arrested-over...
  - lmpdev 2y ago
    I don’t think many is a hyperbole, it’s surpassed 100 arson attacks in Victoria alone…
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  Australian police: "We're not saying all tobacconists are linked with the sale of illicit tobacco, but what we are saying is that people are being targeted, businesses are being targeted because the organisers police allege are linked to the sale of illicit tobacco are simply standing over them." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-15/tweed-tobacconist-ram-raid-ballina-arson-police-investigate/104604202 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-15/tweed-tobacconist-ram...
  - Thorrez 2y ago
    I have a hard time understanding that sentence. Organizers of what? The businesses, or illicit tobacco? What does standing over mean? It's not clear to me why standing over would be a motivation for attacks.
    - com 2y ago
      Organisers of the threats to others. To “stand over” is a verb meaning roughly to “threaten, with menace”. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the party or parties that have undertaken the attacks.
- antiatheist 2y ago
  It's multiple lebanese family/gangs (Haddara family and others) vs biker gangs - as far as I can tell from news reports. Both these parties run tobacco stores in many states - licensing was/is non-existant or minimal, although they are now increasing the overview and requirements in states that were lax. These stores were mostly branded as vape/convenience stores until the recent regulation changes, now they often sell american candy and various random things along with local gov sanctioned cigarettes ($50/pack minimum) or the imported packs ($15-25 pack) - you can guess which one they pretty much exclusively sell. Asians (Vietnamese/Chinese) are also selling the imported cigarettes out of their own branded stores and also some of the big chain tobacco stores (TSG, Cignall). There have been dozens of arson attacks against the Lebanese and Biker stores over the last few years, supposedly over territory and payments. A lebanese nearby had its security facade destroyed and was torched black the day after last years Christmas. The asians don't seem to be involved in the arson attacks, they may be importing it as many of the packs are korean/chinese, but unsure as also eastern european and english brands are available. The government engineered this situation with its ridiculous taxation policy, it was effective up to a point but it's becoming reminiscent of the era of alcohol prohibition in the USA.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    $50 a pack? Yeah at those prices you can bet a black market crops up. IMO this is only causing more problems. It won't put people off smoking because cheaper illegal alternatives arrive and it will create heavy crime syndicates.

Gigachad 2y ago

Had they made reusable vapes legal this wouldn’t have been an issue.

KennyBlanken 2y ago
Reusable vapes are beyond commonplace in the US and there's still a huge problem with disposables. For kids, they're expensive to purchase, expensive to replace when mom/dad take it away, and much harder to conceal from teachers and parents. It's harder to swap flavors and such, too. Really, the issue is that public officials and police don't care. It took 3-4 years for NYC to start doing something about the thousands of illegal smoke shops.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  They're only going to be expensive if they're the "premium" option. If reusable is the only option, then these $5 basic reusable vapes I see in google will go into stores everywhere on the same shelves that used to have disposables. They're small too. The overhead of a charging circuit and a refillable or removable chamber is not much.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  I know people who are grown adults who still buy the disposable vapes. You save zero money of course since they charge more than the given amount when you don't have to get the battery. I have no clue why they do it. I think part of it is psychological, like "oh I don't use the vape much I won't get myself an actual battery," then three beers in they are running across the street to the smoke shop for a disposable.
bogantech 2y ago
They wouldn't want to harm the profits of their friends big tobacco and the tax the govt get from ciggies. If they cared about health you'd be able to get Snus too
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  If it's about taxes why not impose a tax on ecigs?

KennyBlanken 2y ago

> Here in Oz the banning of disposable nicotine vapes has led to an increase in organised crime activity. That organized crime already existed and this is just one of a dozen or so income streams for them. Hard drugs, human trafficking, and money laundering are probably orders of magnitude more profitable. Also: people get murdered all the time, despite it being illegal. Clearly the law isn't working, so let's make murder legal! /s Oh, and legalizing weed didn't do jack shit about dealers selling weed; the dealers are much cheaper, provide better service, and often better product (well, except the illicit stuff is likely to have much higher pesticide content.)

Duwensatzaj 2y ago
> Oh, and legalizing weed didn't do jack shit about dealers selling weed This isn’t universal. Oregon estimates roughly 80% of marijuana purchases are through legal sources nowadays. The real issue the state sees now is apparently illegal grow farms to supply other states that haven’t legalized or where the taxes are too high. Source: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/14/oregon-marijuana-legalization-black-market-enforcement-527012 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/14/oregon-mar...
- Spivak 2y ago
  People really don't want to believe that "just make it legal" actually works for some reason. There's primary and secondary industry in organized crime and cutting off the primary starves the secondary. A drug policy that makes it so that nobody who does party drugs has contact with a dealer breaks the entire supply chain because there's no outside money coming in.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    "just make it legal" has unintended consequences. The cartels, faced with the loss of income from illegally selling now-legal weed didn't starve. they didn't go "oh, hey, I guess we should stop being criminals". No, they pivoted to heroin which turned into dealing fentanyl with disastrous results for the US. We'll keep losing the war on drugs until we start fighting it with community assistance programs and jobs and houses and doctors and therapists.

brenainn 2y ago

The ban hasn't really changed much on the crime side of things. Nicotine vapes were already illegal and they continue to import them through the same channels. The organised crime is primarily tobacco. It's low risk and poorly enforced, and probably very high margins where a pack of Chinese or counterfeit cigarettes is resold for $10 to $20 or so. Vapes and nicotine pouches are part of that too but I would wager tobacco is moved in significantly higher volumes.

golemiprague 2y ago

[dead]

sensanaty 2y ago

Whether ecigs were legal or not, presumably kids would've had to go black market anyways?