5 ms·

While I agree with the general sentiment, I think the same could have been said regardless of which candidate won. It feels like the left moved left, the right

While I agree with the general sentiment, I think the same could have been said regardless of which candidate won. It feels like the left moved left, the right moved right, and instead of catering to moderates, threatening them to pick a side. Said another way, I think a young Jimmy Carter type candidate would have wiped the floor with either side this election.

UncleOxidant 2y ago
> I think the same could have been said regardless of which candidate won. I don't disagree. It's a matter of degrees, though. The post-WWII era was always going to go away when everyone who remembered WWII (or were children of those who fought it) passed away. That's kind of where we are now.
davidw 2y ago
"Both sides" doesn't really correspond with reality though. She made a concentrated effort to reach out to people on both sides, including the Cheneys, of all people.
- ngcazz 2y ago
  Both sides of the right wing, the only wing.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Associating with Republican party establishment types like the Cheneys is a giant middle finger to far more people than it isn't.
  - davidw 2y ago
    They are no longer "Republican party establishment types" though.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      oh but there are … and plenty of them … behind closed doors they are talking “we gonna milk this MFer next 4 years and will be here another 25-30 when he’s retired in FL (or dead)” (I know this almost first-hand…) they are there and they always run the show - all else as always just smoke&mirrors
- data_maan 2y ago
  At least Kamala's not a rapist.
dpkirchner 2y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by the left moving left. In my view, if anything the left wing has been moving rightward for at least a couple decades. Just not as far or quickly right as the right wing.
- jmward01 2y ago
  Totally agree. I see nothing 'left' in the current democratic party. Pro wars, pro boarder hardening, no real effort on healthcare. Slowly but surely they are turning towards the 'conservative' path. Arguably that is one of the big reasons they lost. They are trying to be the Republican Lite party.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
> like the left moved left, the right moved right, The only leftist pandering that Kamala offered was getting rid of taxes on tips (something that Trump offered first, actually), she seemed fairly center, or even a bit right of center (putting off far lefties) as Democrat presidential candidates are usually these days. Trump, likewise, didn't really veer right, he actually veered a bit left in offering to lower prices, make life easier, less wars, and stuff that you would not really hear from a far right candidate either (well, except for the ultra nationalism). I don't think left and right really describes our parties anymore. > Said another way, I think a young Jimmy Carter type candidate would have wiped the floor with either side this election. I don't think someone like young Jimmy Carter could get elected today, he is just too honest and wouldn't be promising enough short term juice. Most Americans are too inward focused for that kind of politician right now.
- data_maan 2y ago
  > well, except for the ultra nationalism and also excepting the fact that he wants to end abortion, be a dictator, end elections, and drill babay drill. Other than that he's very left. Very.
  - swat535 2y ago
    How are you reaching these conclusions?
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    I just don’t see the conservative and liberal labels being useful at this point. Trump is a populist who focuses on nationalism, he says what his base wants to hear. My main beef with him is that he is irresponsible and petulant, I still vote for a mix of conservative and liberal candidates actually (voting from Seattle, everyone I voted for this November lost).
datavirtue 2y ago
No way. Our politics are like a bar fight. Dirty and reactionary.
sota_pop 2y ago
I see this as the crux of most issues in modern American politics - that is, the primary elections… they act a feedback loop galvanizing each party. i.e. the fact that you can’t become “the repub/dem candidate” unless you represent the party’s values to the most extreme extent means the selection of a moderate candidate becomes increasingly unlikely with time.
InsideOutSanta 2y ago
"It feels like the left moved left" In what way? If anything, Democrats have moved to the right on topics like border control and immigration, and haven't really moved strongly to either side on social issues like abortion or drugs, on education, gun control, campaign finance, trade, healthcare, or foreign policy.
- silisili 2y ago
  Since I've been asked a thousand times by leftists, I'll try to answer. I feel like at least the right recognizes they're going further right. > Democrats have moved to the right on topics like border control and immigration Yes, because it's become such an apparent clusterfk they had no choice but to. It's not much different than a child covered in Nutella, with Nutella all over the table and floor telling their parents maybe no more Nutella. It wasn't a policy shift, it's attempting to save face. To this day some areas are claiming to be sanctuary and will fight it all. Trans issues. Men in women's sports, tampons in men's bathrooms. Sex ed in elementary school? Kid's books about gay or trans parents and sex. Kids on puberty blockers? All would seem insane to Carter democrats. DEI. BLM. Affirmative action The whole equity explanation and movement. To my knowledge, they still want reparations, which are hugely unpopular. Economy. UBI? The whole antiwork movement? The open rise of communists/socialists in citizens. Biden and Kamala are pretty far right of the left, as many pointed out. It doesn't mean the left as a whole isn't moving further left. Maybe to leftists things feel like they are moving right, but they absolutely aren't. The candidates representing them, poorly, are trying to salvage any votes they can and shy away from the movement of the members at large because they know they're not popular. Trump is in many ways the same. Well, I have no idea what he is, he's a smooth talker and probably far to the left of whatever the MAGA movement is. Which is itself moving continually to the extreme right, to some fanfare. People will probably link to some enlightened centrist meme. I don't care. I don't think I'm smarter or know policy better than anyone. I mostly want to be left alone, and draw ideas from both sides. I think the base for each is moving further apart. I don't care if it's downvoted, don't tell me my own eyes deceive me. Edit: Please don't waste energy telling me why I'm wrong. I'm used to it. I likely won't read it. Read the end of the last paragraph again.
foota 2y ago
There was an interesting article in the NYT recently by Nate Cohn (formerly of 538) on the realignment that seems to be happening in politics. It was an interesting read: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/25/upshot/trump-era-republicans-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.lU4.YL6p.zBQY9ovFzkof&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/25/upshot/trump-era-republic...
klardotsh 2y ago
Maybe the left, as in those of us with relatively progreasive views, moved left. But as a result of that, no major party actually reflects outlr views. The Democratic party is not a progressive party, and spends almost all of its effort courting centrist and center-right voters, not sure what you mean about moderates not being catered to. They are, at the cost of completely alienating and disenfranchising the actual left.

UncleOxidant 2y ago

> I think the same could have been said regardless of which candidate won. I don't disagree. It's a matter of degrees, though. The post-WWII era was always going to go away when everyone who remembered WWII (or were children of those who fought it) passed away. That's kind of where we are now.

davidw 2y ago

"Both sides" doesn't really correspond with reality though. She made a concentrated effort to reach out to people on both sides, including the Cheneys, of all people.

ngcazz 2y ago
Both sides of the right wing, the only wing.
potato3732842 2y ago
Associating with Republican party establishment types like the Cheneys is a giant middle finger to far more people than it isn't.
- davidw 2y ago
  They are no longer "Republican party establishment types" though.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    oh but there are … and plenty of them … behind closed doors they are talking “we gonna milk this MFer next 4 years and will be here another 25-30 when he’s retired in FL (or dead)” (I know this almost first-hand…) they are there and they always run the show - all else as always just smoke&mirrors
data_maan 2y ago
At least Kamala's not a rapist.

dpkirchner 2y ago

I'm not sure what you mean by the left moving left. In my view, if anything the left wing has been moving rightward for at least a couple decades. Just not as far or quickly right as the right wing.

jmward01 2y ago
Totally agree. I see nothing 'left' in the current democratic party. Pro wars, pro boarder hardening, no real effort on healthcare. Slowly but surely they are turning towards the 'conservative' path. Arguably that is one of the big reasons they lost. They are trying to be the Republican Lite party.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

> like the left moved left, the right moved right, The only leftist pandering that Kamala offered was getting rid of taxes on tips (something that Trump offered first, actually), she seemed fairly center, or even a bit right of center (putting off far lefties) as Democrat presidential candidates are usually these days. Trump, likewise, didn't really veer right, he actually veered a bit left in offering to lower prices, make life easier, less wars, and stuff that you would not really hear from a far right candidate either (well, except for the ultra nationalism). I don't think left and right really describes our parties anymore. > Said another way, I think a young Jimmy Carter type candidate would have wiped the floor with either side this election. I don't think someone like young Jimmy Carter could get elected today, he is just too honest and wouldn't be promising enough short term juice. Most Americans are too inward focused for that kind of politician right now.

data_maan 2y ago
> well, except for the ultra nationalism and also excepting the fact that he wants to end abortion, be a dictator, end elections, and drill babay drill. Other than that he's very left. Very.
- swat535 2y ago
  How are you reaching these conclusions?
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  I just don’t see the conservative and liberal labels being useful at this point. Trump is a populist who focuses on nationalism, he says what his base wants to hear. My main beef with him is that he is irresponsible and petulant, I still vote for a mix of conservative and liberal candidates actually (voting from Seattle, everyone I voted for this November lost).

datavirtue 2y ago

No way. Our politics are like a bar fight. Dirty and reactionary.

sota_pop 2y ago

I see this as the crux of most issues in modern American politics - that is, the primary elections… they act a feedback loop galvanizing each party. i.e. the fact that you can’t become “the repub/dem candidate” unless you represent the party’s values to the most extreme extent means the selection of a moderate candidate becomes increasingly unlikely with time.

InsideOutSanta 2y ago

"It feels like the left moved left" In what way? If anything, Democrats have moved to the right on topics like border control and immigration, and haven't really moved strongly to either side on social issues like abortion or drugs, on education, gun control, campaign finance, trade, healthcare, or foreign policy.

silisili 2y ago
Since I've been asked a thousand times by leftists, I'll try to answer. I feel like at least the right recognizes they're going further right. > Democrats have moved to the right on topics like border control and immigration Yes, because it's become such an apparent clusterfk they had no choice but to. It's not much different than a child covered in Nutella, with Nutella all over the table and floor telling their parents maybe no more Nutella. It wasn't a policy shift, it's attempting to save face. To this day some areas are claiming to be sanctuary and will fight it all. Trans issues. Men in women's sports, tampons in men's bathrooms. Sex ed in elementary school? Kid's books about gay or trans parents and sex. Kids on puberty blockers? All would seem insane to Carter democrats. DEI. BLM. Affirmative action The whole equity explanation and movement. To my knowledge, they still want reparations, which are hugely unpopular. Economy. UBI? The whole antiwork movement? The open rise of communists/socialists in citizens. Biden and Kamala are pretty far right of the left, as many pointed out. It doesn't mean the left as a whole isn't moving further left. Maybe to leftists things feel like they are moving right, but they absolutely aren't. The candidates representing them, poorly, are trying to salvage any votes they can and shy away from the movement of the members at large because they know they're not popular. Trump is in many ways the same. Well, I have no idea what he is, he's a smooth talker and probably far to the left of whatever the MAGA movement is. Which is itself moving continually to the extreme right, to some fanfare. People will probably link to some enlightened centrist meme. I don't care. I don't think I'm smarter or know policy better than anyone. I mostly want to be left alone, and draw ideas from both sides. I think the base for each is moving further apart. I don't care if it's downvoted, don't tell me my own eyes deceive me. Edit: Please don't waste energy telling me why I'm wrong. I'm used to it. I likely won't read it. Read the end of the last paragraph again.

foota 2y ago

There was an interesting article in the NYT recently by Nate Cohn (formerly of 538) on the realignment that seems to be happening in politics. It was an interesting read: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/25/upshot/trump-era-republicans-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.lU4.YL6p.zBQY9ovFzkof&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/25/upshot/trump-era-republic...

klardotsh 2y ago

Maybe the left, as in those of us with relatively progreasive views, moved left. But as a result of that, no major party actually reflects outlr views. The Democratic party is not a progressive party, and spends almost all of its effort courting centrist and center-right voters, not sure what you mean about moderates not being catered to. They are, at the cost of completely alienating and disenfranchising the actual left.