5 ms·

Canada here, can we join too?

by grahamj 2y ago

burcs 2y ago
I heard you all will be joining a different union of sorts here soon enough.
- grahamj 2y ago
  I've always joked about joining Europe because I feel we have more in common with them then our neighbour to the South, but recent comments from said neighbour's upcoming Führer have made the jokes just a tad more serious.
- grecy 2y ago
  I think it more likely we'll burn the White House down. Again.
  - skissane 2y ago
    Maybe the US will break up, and then some parts of the US will join Canada. As big as the political problems the US has been having in recent years are, I don't think that's likely to happen in the short-to-medium term. But, if these problems just keep on getting worse, then eventually it may become a very real possibility.
    - tills13 2y ago
      I'd be down to switch things up and join Cascadia as a BC resident. Though the US can keep Oregon...
    - arrowsmith 2y ago
      Why not the reverse? Peter Zeihan makes the case in one of his books for why Alberta should leave Canada and join the US. I’m not Canadian or American and have no dog in the fight, but it’s interesting reading.
      - grecy 2y ago
        I lived in Alberta for a few years. While Alberta is often called “the Texas of Canada” there is not a single Albert a that would give up their healthcare to join the US. In many meaningful ways their standard of living would plummet overnight - healthcare, education, safety, violent crime, life expectancy, etc.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Why would violent crime go up?
        grecy 2y ago
        USA vs Canada per capita Rape: 16x higher Total Crime: 5x higher Murder rate: 3x higher Prisoners per capita: 6x more .. and it goes on ... would you want your community to change like that ? https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/Uni...
        arrowsmith 2y ago
        Why would the law-abiding people of Alberta become violent criminals just because they gained American citizenship? And why would the US's existing violent criminals move to Alberta? Violent crime in the US is not evenly distributed.
        grecy 2y ago
        I think it's reasonable to presume that any territory added to a country will become the average of that country over time. So the better question is actually why is the average American such a violent criminal compared to the average Canadian? Answer that and you will have answered your question. Likely lack of healthcare (desperation), lack of affordable education, debt, need to fill for-profit prisons, corporate lobbying to make regular people's lives worse, etc. etc. > Violent crime in the US is not evenly distributed. Neither is it in Canada. If you want to cherry pick the "best" of the US and leave out the worst from any comparisons, you'd have to do that for whatever country you're comparing it to.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
chgs 2y ago
What does your governor say?
Scoundreller 2y ago
Our 7 farmers will put a stop to anything like that.
ncruces 2y ago
No, that's actually off limits, by treaty.
- skissane 2y ago
  > No, that's actually off limits, by treaty. They have to amend the treaty anyway to allow a new member state to join, so why couldn't they just amend it to remove that limit at the same time? What really matters here isn't the letter of treaties, it is the political reality that it ain't happening. Canada's economy is very tightly bound to that of the US, joining the EU would be erecting all these new barriers to Canada-US trade which would hurt the Canadian economy, and the reduced barriers to Canada-EU trade wouldn't be enough to counteract that. There is no escaping the geographical reality that the US is right next door, the EU an ocean away.
  - ncruces 2y ago
    > What really matters here isn't the letter of treaties, it is the political reality that it ain't happening. And the political reality is that no one in the EU wants to widen the discussion to countries like Morocco, so the rule that the country must be in Europe is useful.
    - skissane 2y ago
      I don't think they really want Kazakhstan in the EU either, but the rule that "the country must be in Europe" isn't needed to keep them out. (Most of Kazakhstan is in Central Asia, but a small sliver is in Europe, by the standard geographical definition.)
      - grecy 2y ago
        Iceland is literally on the gap in the tectonic plates between Europe and North America.
      - ncruces 2y ago
        You're right. You could say the same about Turkey. And, really, Georgia (also granted candidate status) which is a problem in that a not insignificant fraction of the population isn't really sure if the EU is better than Russia. But having a problem with expanding further east doesn't necessarily recommend that the EU should expand further south or west.

Canada here, can we join too?

burcs 2y ago

I heard you all will be joining a different union of sorts here soon enough.

grahamj 2y ago
I've always joked about joining Europe because I feel we have more in common with them then our neighbour to the South, but recent comments from said neighbour's upcoming Führer have made the jokes just a tad more serious.
grecy 2y ago
I think it more likely we'll burn the White House down. Again.
- skissane 2y ago
  Maybe the US will break up, and then some parts of the US will join Canada. As big as the political problems the US has been having in recent years are, I don't think that's likely to happen in the short-to-medium term. But, if these problems just keep on getting worse, then eventually it may become a very real possibility.
  - tills13 2y ago
    I'd be down to switch things up and join Cascadia as a BC resident. Though the US can keep Oregon...
  - arrowsmith 2y ago
    Why not the reverse? Peter Zeihan makes the case in one of his books for why Alberta should leave Canada and join the US. I’m not Canadian or American and have no dog in the fight, but it’s interesting reading.
    - grecy 2y ago
      I lived in Alberta for a few years. While Alberta is often called “the Texas of Canada” there is not a single Albert a that would give up their healthcare to join the US. In many meaningful ways their standard of living would plummet overnight - healthcare, education, safety, violent crime, life expectancy, etc.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        Why would violent crime go up?
        grecy 2y ago
        USA vs Canada per capita Rape: 16x higher Total Crime: 5x higher Murder rate: 3x higher Prisoners per capita: 6x more .. and it goes on ... would you want your community to change like that ? https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/Uni...
        arrowsmith 2y ago
        Why would the law-abiding people of Alberta become violent criminals just because they gained American citizenship? And why would the US's existing violent criminals move to Alberta? Violent crime in the US is not evenly distributed.
        grecy 2y ago
        I think it's reasonable to presume that any territory added to a country will become the average of that country over time. So the better question is actually why is the average American such a violent criminal compared to the average Canadian? Answer that and you will have answered your question. Likely lack of healthcare (desperation), lack of affordable education, debt, need to fill for-profit prisons, corporate lobbying to make regular people's lives worse, etc. etc. > Violent crime in the US is not evenly distributed. Neither is it in Canada. If you want to cherry pick the "best" of the US and leave out the worst from any comparisons, you'd have to do that for whatever country you're comparing it to.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

chgs 2y ago

What does your governor say?

Scoundreller 2y ago

Our 7 farmers will put a stop to anything like that.

ncruces 2y ago

No, that's actually off limits, by treaty.

skissane 2y ago
> No, that's actually off limits, by treaty. They have to amend the treaty anyway to allow a new member state to join, so why couldn't they just amend it to remove that limit at the same time? What really matters here isn't the letter of treaties, it is the political reality that it ain't happening. Canada's economy is very tightly bound to that of the US, joining the EU would be erecting all these new barriers to Canada-US trade which would hurt the Canadian economy, and the reduced barriers to Canada-EU trade wouldn't be enough to counteract that. There is no escaping the geographical reality that the US is right next door, the EU an ocean away.
- ncruces 2y ago
  > What really matters here isn't the letter of treaties, it is the political reality that it ain't happening. And the political reality is that no one in the EU wants to widen the discussion to countries like Morocco, so the rule that the country must be in Europe is useful.
  - skissane 2y ago
    I don't think they really want Kazakhstan in the EU either, but the rule that "the country must be in Europe" isn't needed to keep them out. (Most of Kazakhstan is in Central Asia, but a small sliver is in Europe, by the standard geographical definition.)
    - grecy 2y ago
      Iceland is literally on the gap in the tectonic plates between Europe and North America.
    - ncruces 2y ago
      You're right. You could say the same about Turkey. And, really, Georgia (also granted candidate status) which is a problem in that a not insignificant fraction of the population isn't really sure if the EU is better than Russia. But having a problem with expanding further east doesn't necessarily recommend that the EU should expand further south or west.