5 ms·

> For his loss in 1980, I still blame Kennedy. Explain?

jmclnx 2y ago
Kennedy split the split the Democratic Party, causing people not to bother to vote. Plus it gave Reagan many talking points, which then started the move of Union People to the GOP.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Is there evidence of that? The centrist Dems always blame those further left, not themselves. They did it in 2016 and this year too.
  - fargle 2y ago
    > The centrist Dems always blame those further left, not themselves. They did it in 2016 and this year too. well, unless there is an big untapped electorate even further left, that would make a lot of sense actually, wouldn't it?
    - mmooss 2y ago
      Why would that make a lot of sense? Is there a large untapped electorate elsewhere on the spectrum? And more importantly, is there any evidence?
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        You're asking for a lot of evidence on what's overall the opinions of an entire country. Something entire electorial campaigns apparently struggle to do despite their funding ballooning. You have to do that research yourself, that isn't a question answered within HN's character limit. But Bernie's popularity along the youth probably was not just some trend, to help you start.
        fargle 2y ago
        > You're asking for a lot of evidence on what's overall the opinions of an entire country we literally just had a referendum on that. moving further left from 2016-2020-2024 lost voters. how pissed off do people have to be to have that result? that implies, very strongly, to me that there is a huge segment in the center-left to center-right that is really irritated right now. not bernie's group for sure. although he seems more center compared to the "squad". you should thank them for that.
        mmooss 2y ago
        I haven't heard anyone say that Harris 2024 was further left than Biden 2020. Biden 2020 was probably the furthest left of the campaigns you list, and won. Clinton was more centrist and Harris moved back toward the center, and both lost. Also, it's hard to imagine a centrist Dem voting for Trump in any circumstances.
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        moving further left from 2016-2020-2024 lost voters. No, it continued the 30 year trend since Hw Bush. Right to left to right. It only really hints that people only rile up after the other party leaves office. So I guess "pissed off enough to be mildly annoying but not so pissed off to overcome an incumbent". But yes, the center is riled up, a little. The right moreso. Someone on the fringes is never not going to vote to begin with, so that's a bad way to judge those groups. >not bernie's group for sure. although he seems more center compared to the "squad". you should thank them for that. Really depends on your lens. For the EU, US is basically center right even with liberals. So Bernie would be a proper left wing candidate. But for US, that's about as liberal as we've been for decades. Decades of red scare narrative made many across the board hate the idea of "socialist ideals" like Universal healthcare and publicly owned utilities. It seems that's starting to crack,maybe.
        mmooss 2y ago
        There's lots of research on election results and voting patterns. > You have to do that research yourself It's really on you or whoever is making the claim. > that isn't a question answered within HN's character limit It seems pretty straightforward to me. Who voted for what and why? If you don't know, then these claims are fabrications.
      - fargle 2y ago
        the center. you know, the existence of which just changed the course of the latest election...
        mmooss 2y ago
        Why do you say that? Where is the evidence? Otherwise, these are just circular claims, unchecked by reality.
        fargle 2y ago
        i think you miss my point. trump is obviously further right than either biden, kamala. whatever the relative left-ness of those choices where, it was obviously so much so too far left for about 2million+ people who, to be gracious, decided to hold their noses. so i'm left completely flumoxed why it's not blindingly obvious. at least at this point in time, those candidates' platforms seriously missed the mark. if those folks that were centrist-ish enough to even consider "holding their noses" to vote for trump, i can't imagine how they'd be supportive of anything even further to the left of the choices they had available and fairly rejected. how would moving further left capture those voters? (those willing to vote trump, perhaps marginally) i know it's not just right vs. left, but in this case all the other things seem to either be trump disadvanges (personality) or about the same for both of the two poles. nobody in the whole election seemed to be able to string a coherent sentence together, for example.
        mmooss 2y ago
        My impression - I'm not in your head, of course - is that you don't see your own assumptions. > it was obviously so much so too far left for about 2million+ people How do you know why they voted that way? For example, there is evidence that many people voted for Trump because they thought he would do more for the economy. Maybe it was crime, or charisma or corruption or a million other things. Where is evidence to support your claim that it was a rejection of leftism? Why do you even believe it - assume it without question, afaict - if you have no evidence? (I'm assuming, for the sake of this comment, that this 2+ million cohort exists and voted a certain way.)
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I mean, Kennedy undoubtedly wanted to run. This isn't some niche conspiracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_United_States_presidentia... "a few days before the announcement went badly, however. Kennedy gave an "incoherent and repetitive"[9] answer to the question of why he was running, and the polls, which showed him leading Carter by 58–25 in August now had him ahead 49–39." Who knows how this could have gone had that interview not bombed his ratings.
JadeNB 2y ago
In case it helps to clarify, probably Ted Kennedy, not JFK.
- khazhoux 2y ago
  Oh, that does help!!
- arrowsmith 2y ago
  It would have been difficult for JFK to sabotage anyone’s reelection in 1980, given that he died in 1963.
  - EdwardDiego 2y ago
    I take it you haven't seen the documentary Weekend At Bernie's?

Kennedy split the split the Democratic Party, causing people not to bother to vote. Plus it gave Reagan many talking points, which then started the move of Union People to the GOP.

mmooss 2y ago
Is there evidence of that? The centrist Dems always blame those further left, not themselves. They did it in 2016 and this year too.
- fargle 2y ago
  > The centrist Dems always blame those further left, not themselves. They did it in 2016 and this year too. well, unless there is an big untapped electorate even further left, that would make a lot of sense actually, wouldn't it?
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Why would that make a lot of sense? Is there a large untapped electorate elsewhere on the spectrum? And more importantly, is there any evidence?
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      You're asking for a lot of evidence on what's overall the opinions of an entire country. Something entire electorial campaigns apparently struggle to do despite their funding ballooning. You have to do that research yourself, that isn't a question answered within HN's character limit. But Bernie's popularity along the youth probably was not just some trend, to help you start.
      - fargle 2y ago
        > You're asking for a lot of evidence on what's overall the opinions of an entire country we literally just had a referendum on that. moving further left from 2016-2020-2024 lost voters. how pissed off do people have to be to have that result? that implies, very strongly, to me that there is a huge segment in the center-left to center-right that is really irritated right now. not bernie's group for sure. although he seems more center compared to the "squad". you should thank them for that.
        mmooss 2y ago
        I haven't heard anyone say that Harris 2024 was further left than Biden 2020. Biden 2020 was probably the furthest left of the campaigns you list, and won. Clinton was more centrist and Harris moved back toward the center, and both lost. Also, it's hard to imagine a centrist Dem voting for Trump in any circumstances.
        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        moving further left from 2016-2020-2024 lost voters. No, it continued the 30 year trend since Hw Bush. Right to left to right. It only really hints that people only rile up after the other party leaves office. So I guess "pissed off enough to be mildly annoying but not so pissed off to overcome an incumbent". But yes, the center is riled up, a little. The right moreso. Someone on the fringes is never not going to vote to begin with, so that's a bad way to judge those groups. >not bernie's group for sure. although he seems more center compared to the "squad". you should thank them for that. Really depends on your lens. For the EU, US is basically center right even with liberals. So Bernie would be a proper left wing candidate. But for US, that's about as liberal as we've been for decades. Decades of red scare narrative made many across the board hate the idea of "socialist ideals" like Universal healthcare and publicly owned utilities. It seems that's starting to crack,maybe.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        There's lots of research on election results and voting patterns. > You have to do that research yourself It's really on you or whoever is making the claim. > that isn't a question answered within HN's character limit It seems pretty straightforward to me. Who voted for what and why? If you don't know, then these claims are fabrications.
    - fargle 2y ago
      the center. you know, the existence of which just changed the course of the latest election...
      - mmooss 2y ago
        Why do you say that? Where is the evidence? Otherwise, these are just circular claims, unchecked by reality.
        fargle 2y ago
        i think you miss my point. trump is obviously further right than either biden, kamala. whatever the relative left-ness of those choices where, it was obviously so much so too far left for about 2million+ people who, to be gracious, decided to hold their noses. so i'm left completely flumoxed why it's not blindingly obvious. at least at this point in time, those candidates' platforms seriously missed the mark. if those folks that were centrist-ish enough to even consider "holding their noses" to vote for trump, i can't imagine how they'd be supportive of anything even further to the left of the choices they had available and fairly rejected. how would moving further left capture those voters? (those willing to vote trump, perhaps marginally) i know it's not just right vs. left, but in this case all the other things seem to either be trump disadvanges (personality) or about the same for both of the two poles. nobody in the whole election seemed to be able to string a coherent sentence together, for example.
        mmooss 2y ago
        My impression - I'm not in your head, of course - is that you don't see your own assumptions. > it was obviously so much so too far left for about 2million+ people How do you know why they voted that way? For example, there is evidence that many people voted for Trump because they thought he would do more for the economy. Maybe it was crime, or charisma or corruption or a million other things. Where is evidence to support your claim that it was a rejection of leftism? Why do you even believe it - assume it without question, afaict - if you have no evidence? (I'm assuming, for the sake of this comment, that this 2+ million cohort exists and voted a certain way.)
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  I mean, Kennedy undoubtedly wanted to run. This isn't some niche conspiracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_United_States_presidentia... "a few days before the announcement went badly, however. Kennedy gave an "incoherent and repetitive"[9] answer to the question of why he was running, and the polls, which showed him leading Carter by 58–25 in August now had him ahead 49–39." Who knows how this could have gone had that interview not bombed his ratings.

JadeNB 2y ago

In case it helps to clarify, probably Ted Kennedy, not JFK.

khazhoux 2y ago
Oh, that does help!!
arrowsmith 2y ago
It would have been difficult for JFK to sabotage anyone’s reelection in 1980, given that he died in 1963.
- EdwardDiego 2y ago
  I take it you haven't seen the documentary Weekend At Bernie's?