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I disagree with this being presented as if it was special. It’s standard operating procedure for intelligence agencies worldwide.

lazyeye 2y ago
Its probably more a question of scale that makes China unique.
- monadINtop 2y ago
  Do you have any numbers that would verify that? Or even any other statement on that issue? Pretty sure determining the "scale" of any kind of intelligence activity is unbelievably murky, as you might be able to imagine.
  - Cyph0n 2y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_State_Security_(China) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_State_Security_(...
    - monadINtop 2y ago
      Nice a Wikipedia article. Where can I find any indication of comparative scale compared to any other nation, like I asked? Just going by a blind guess and knowledge of the world, I guess it's pretty much correlated with economy and geopolitical dominance, so I'd expect America to be number one simply as a result of it's wealth and strategic dominance in the last century, and then China somewhere around the level of the rest of NATO or Russia or something (though I'm sure rapidly rising, which would explain the growing anxiety of the corporate mouthpieces in The Economist).
      - Cyph0n 2y ago
        In a nutshell, it has a unique structure, a wider mandate, and operates a bit differently than your typical intelligence service - especially domestically. "One of the largest and most secretive intelligence organizations in the world, it maintains powerful branches at the provincial, city, municipality and township levels throughout China."
        monadINtop 2y ago
        >operates a bit differently than your typical intelligence service - especially domestically Fair enough. But as wild speculation with no real insight, I'd guess that such a large mass organizational structure probably also precludes the same rigid centralization and advanced capabilities of other intelligence agencies i.e. it probably operates more as a snitching hotline to gather less specific intel on a wider range of people with less ability to perform any actionable espionage type operations, instead of a horde of spies illegally infiltrating every western government, university, and business. But again I got no real idea.
kaonwarb 2y ago
This is not standard operating procedure worldwide, in part because there aren't that many countries folks are trying to flee to: > America granted him asylum and he settled in New York, becoming the leader of Chinese pro-democracy groups. But in August 2024 he was arrested by the FBI. He admits to having used his position to collect information for the Chinese government and to report on his fellow activists. He did this so that the government would allow him to return to China to see his ailing parents.
- pydry 2y ago
  shrug I know members of a foreign diaspora that (my) western government has tried to turn into spies. Doesnt get talked about in the media much but it happens.
kasey_junk 2y ago
Do you have an example of a western government only letting someone come home to visit ailing parents in exchange for spying on their countrymen in a foreign nation? I’m sure it happens just because there are lots of people. But I’m having a hard time coming up with a western nation that has a significant political dissident diaspora. I’d guess that the war on terror might generate one somewhere?
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  The FBI targeted an Canadian scientist of Chinese origin and his family members because he declined to spy on China for them.[0,1] After he declined to spy on China, the FBI accused him of being a Chinese spy. The accusations turned out to be completely spurious, and the FBI agent involved was found to have knowingly spread lies about the scientist. But before his name was cleared, he was fired by his university, and the FBI made all sorts of public declarations that he was a spy. 0. https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/27/1027350/anming-hu-china-initiative-research-espionage-spying/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/27/1027350/anming-h... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Anming_Hu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Anming_Hu

lazyeye 2y ago

Its probably more a question of scale that makes China unique.

monadINtop 2y ago
Do you have any numbers that would verify that? Or even any other statement on that issue? Pretty sure determining the "scale" of any kind of intelligence activity is unbelievably murky, as you might be able to imagine.
- Cyph0n 2y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_State_Security_(China) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_State_Security_(...
  - monadINtop 2y ago
    Nice a Wikipedia article. Where can I find any indication of comparative scale compared to any other nation, like I asked? Just going by a blind guess and knowledge of the world, I guess it's pretty much correlated with economy and geopolitical dominance, so I'd expect America to be number one simply as a result of it's wealth and strategic dominance in the last century, and then China somewhere around the level of the rest of NATO or Russia or something (though I'm sure rapidly rising, which would explain the growing anxiety of the corporate mouthpieces in The Economist).
    - Cyph0n 2y ago
      In a nutshell, it has a unique structure, a wider mandate, and operates a bit differently than your typical intelligence service - especially domestically. "One of the largest and most secretive intelligence organizations in the world, it maintains powerful branches at the provincial, city, municipality and township levels throughout China."
      - monadINtop 2y ago
        >operates a bit differently than your typical intelligence service - especially domestically Fair enough. But as wild speculation with no real insight, I'd guess that such a large mass organizational structure probably also precludes the same rigid centralization and advanced capabilities of other intelligence agencies i.e. it probably operates more as a snitching hotline to gather less specific intel on a wider range of people with less ability to perform any actionable espionage type operations, instead of a horde of spies illegally infiltrating every western government, university, and business. But again I got no real idea.

kaonwarb 2y ago

This is not standard operating procedure worldwide, in part because there aren't that many countries folks are trying to flee to: > America granted him asylum and he settled in New York, becoming the leader of Chinese pro-democracy groups. But in August 2024 he was arrested by the FBI. He admits to having used his position to collect information for the Chinese government and to report on his fellow activists. He did this so that the government would allow him to return to China to see his ailing parents.

pydry 2y ago
shrug I know members of a foreign diaspora that (my) western government has tried to turn into spies. Doesnt get talked about in the media much but it happens.

kasey_junk 2y ago

Do you have an example of a western government only letting someone come home to visit ailing parents in exchange for spying on their countrymen in a foreign nation? I’m sure it happens just because there are lots of people. But I’m having a hard time coming up with a western nation that has a significant political dissident diaspora. I’d guess that the war on terror might generate one somewhere?

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
The FBI targeted an Canadian scientist of Chinese origin and his family members because he declined to spy on China for them.[0,1] After he declined to spy on China, the FBI accused him of being a Chinese spy. The accusations turned out to be completely spurious, and the FBI agent involved was found to have knowingly spread lies about the scientist. But before his name was cleared, he was fired by his university, and the FBI made all sorts of public declarations that he was a spy. 0. https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/27/1027350/anming-hu-china-initiative-research-espionage-spying/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/27/1027350/anming-h... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Anming_Hu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Anming_Hu