5 ms·

I understand the reasoning behind this law, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea in the long term. Had the EU passed a similar law a decade ago, they would be s

by ggreer 2y ago

I understand the reasoning behind this law, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea in the long term. Had the EU passed a similar law a decade ago, they would be stuck on mini or micro USB today. There will probably be some plug that is superior to USB-C at some point. How will the EU switch to it? Only the big players (Apple, Samsung, Sony, etc) have the power to lobby for a change. If the goal of this law is to reduce electronic waste, it seems like a better solution would be to tax electronic waste. That would discourage other kinds of e-waste (like those adapters for micro SD cards) while still letting manufacturers to choose other connectors for niche use cases. It would also make it possible for companies to move to a new standard without waiting for the EU to allow it.

freehorse 2y ago
Well, considering the messy state of the different charging ports, that would not have been a bad idea either. I do not think it would have stopped usb-c from taking over, in the same way that the current legislation does not prevent revising it. Standardisation is a good thing over all, and, for good or for worse, it often requires governmental entities to move it forward. If anything, it also creates a leveling field that promotes innovation for what really matters. Only big tech love the alternative, as part of sustaining an oligopolic status.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  > do not think it would have stopped usb-c Why? > in the same way that the current legislation does not prevent revising it. How would that work? USB-C became widespread because manufacturers gradually started adding it to their devices instead of micro-USB/whatever. As far as I understand that would be illegal now? So how could any new standard gain any traction?
gjsman-1000 2y ago
Easy, you have a USB-C port on the top of your phone and the proprietary port on the bottom, duh. - EU regulators
mavhc 2y ago
Do you assume laws cannot be updated?
- pm3003 2y ago
  Low-level EU Regulations like this take approximately 3 years to be drafted and adopted (validated). A whole decade is often needed if the member states consider a new mandate is needed, typically a directive or regulation or treaty clause giving the EC authority and a framework to regulate something. Any update to this regulation will have to wait at least 3 years after a new standard has been agreed on. And there will probably be a period for adoption by the industry, typically 2 years. So at least 5 years after everyone has agreed what is needed. It most probably won't be updated for the next 25 years.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Considering the number of stupid laws that haven’t been updated, and the conflicting interests every time an update is proposed, I answer that it can be safely assumed the law will never be updated in most circumstances.
  - ajuc 2y ago
    The assumption that a law that directly influences millions of people daily lives and has close to 0 direct budget costs associated with it won't be updated when it becomes counterproductive is quite funny. Are you American per chance?
- ggreer 2y ago
  The EU's cookie law still requires a banner for everything except "strictly necessary cookies",[1] which means you must have a banner if you use cookies to save preferred language, default location, or any internal analytics data (such as New Relic, Datadog, etc). So yes, I think updating the law will take a significant amount of time. 1. https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ https://gdpr.eu/cookies/
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
mrtksn 2y ago
I'm always confused when I see someone talking about laws and regulations as something you can't change. Care to explain why? If in the land of cable freedoms they come up with something noticeably better, they can just change the law to allow it. Am I missing something?
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  Just stupid Americans saying Stupid American stuff.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  So how would anyone prove that its “noticeably better” while not being allowed to use that standard on any device? People keep repeating the same thing but it just makes no sense..
- wmf 2y ago
  Legislatures have limited bandwidth and they tend to consider a topic "closed" once they have passed a law. So flawed laws often stick around for decades.
  - okanat 2y ago
    That's why laws are written in broad strokes and redirect exact specification to regulations written by regulatory committees, at least in Continental Europe (i.e. Civil Law system). You don't need to make new laws just update regulatory text.
    - nforgerit 2y ago
      The problem is that those regulatory committees always put some kind of idealistic nonplus ultra standards into the regulations without respecting the real world. "Sorry kids, no kindergarden here for you because the regulator requires us to build parking space for SUVs and obeying this means we can't build enough parking space for all your parents which would break another rule. So we'll do nothing."
jayelbe 2y ago
>Had the EU passed a similar law a decade ago, they would be stuck on mini or micro USB today. They did and (surprise!) we aren't. https://www.slashgear.com/micro-usb-formally-chosen-as-cellphone-charger-standard-by-european-standardization-bodies-29121828/ https://www.slashgear.com/micro-usb-formally-chosen-as-cellp...
- ggreer 2y ago
  The EU didn't mandate micro USB. It was a voluntary standard and it considered a manufacturer to be in compliance if they shipped an adapter (which is what Apple did). The fact that it was voluntary and allowed adapters is why USB-C managed to take off. Also it took until 2021 before the EU decided they needed to change the standard.
- ciupicri 2y ago
  Then how come iPhones didn't have mini or micro USB?
fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
Lightning was a superior plug to USB-C and I, for one, am annoyed that Apple is dropping it.
- fredski42 2y ago
  I am curious about this supposed superiority. Can you explain?
  - wao0uuno 2y ago
    It has a nice click when plugging in even on my 4 yo device. Lasts forever. Every cable feels the same and fits perfectly because they are all made to a standard. I have USB-C cables that are too loose or too tight. I have USB-C cables that click and that are so mushy I sometimes need to double check if they are in. USB-C wiggles in the port more than Lightning does. Lightning was a great connector both by design and because of the strict control Apple had over it. Am I sad it’s gone? Not really, but it was nice to have it when everyone else was stuck with micro usb <vomits>.
  - wordofx 2y ago
    Despite what people think. Lightning port survived way longer than usb-c ports do. I’ve seen phones with the usb-c port with broken middle bit. Go wobbly and lost contact on the board in the phone. Let’s not even get into the terrible standard of usb-c where no 2 cables are the same. Some cables work on some devices…
    - freehorse 2y ago
      > Lightning port survived way longer than usb-c ports do Apple's manufactoring is usually more robust than most, so I doubt this is due to usb-c itself of the manufacturer. Personally I have seen bad usb-a port but never usb-c (and usb-c ports are supports to last for at least 10000 insert cycles, as per the standard). > no 2 cables are the same We can either have a single port supporting a variety of protocols, or, roughly, a port for each protocol. Considering the mostly hierarchical relationship between protocols, I very much prefer the former. Two usb-c cables are not be the same in order to sustain low prices for the lowest end of the protocols, else every cable would have to be a thunderbolt 5 cable costing 100$ or whatever. The problem is not the existence of the protocols, but the companies that make confusing marketing and the fact that the usb standards namings of the protocols is bad (see usb3.1 gen 2) (probably intended so by the same companies, but do not have any evidence or anything). Otherwise things are not that complicated.

by ggreer 2y ago

freehorse 2y ago

Well, considering the messy state of the different charging ports, that would not have been a bad idea either. I do not think it would have stopped usb-c from taking over, in the same way that the current legislation does not prevent revising it. Standardisation is a good thing over all, and, for good or for worse, it often requires governmental entities to move it forward. If anything, it also creates a leveling field that promotes innovation for what really matters. Only big tech love the alternative, as part of sustaining an oligopolic status.

wqaatwt 2y ago
> do not think it would have stopped usb-c Why? > in the same way that the current legislation does not prevent revising it. How would that work? USB-C became widespread because manufacturers gradually started adding it to their devices instead of micro-USB/whatever. As far as I understand that would be illegal now? So how could any new standard gain any traction?

gjsman-1000 2y ago

Easy, you have a USB-C port on the top of your phone and the proprietary port on the bottom, duh. - EU regulators

mavhc 2y ago

Do you assume laws cannot be updated?

pm3003 2y ago
Low-level EU Regulations like this take approximately 3 years to be drafted and adopted (validated). A whole decade is often needed if the member states consider a new mandate is needed, typically a directive or regulation or treaty clause giving the EC authority and a framework to regulate something. Any update to this regulation will have to wait at least 3 years after a new standard has been agreed on. And there will probably be a period for adoption by the industry, typically 2 years. So at least 5 years after everyone has agreed what is needed. It most probably won't be updated for the next 25 years.
gjsman-1000 2y ago
Considering the number of stupid laws that haven’t been updated, and the conflicting interests every time an update is proposed, I answer that it can be safely assumed the law will never be updated in most circumstances.
- ajuc 2y ago
  The assumption that a law that directly influences millions of people daily lives and has close to 0 direct budget costs associated with it won't be updated when it becomes counterproductive is quite funny. Are you American per chance?
ggreer 2y ago
The EU's cookie law still requires a banner for everything except "strictly necessary cookies",[1] which means you must have a banner if you use cookies to save preferred language, default location, or any internal analytics data (such as New Relic, Datadog, etc). So yes, I think updating the law will take a significant amount of time. 1. https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ https://gdpr.eu/cookies/
- carlosjobim 2y ago

mrtksn 2y ago

I'm always confused when I see someone talking about laws and regulations as something you can't change. Care to explain why? If in the land of cable freedoms they come up with something noticeably better, they can just change the law to allow it. Am I missing something?

TiredOfLife 2y ago
Just stupid Americans saying Stupid American stuff.
wqaatwt 2y ago
So how would anyone prove that its “noticeably better” while not being allowed to use that standard on any device? People keep repeating the same thing but it just makes no sense..
wmf 2y ago
Legislatures have limited bandwidth and they tend to consider a topic "closed" once they have passed a law. So flawed laws often stick around for decades.
- okanat 2y ago
  That's why laws are written in broad strokes and redirect exact specification to regulations written by regulatory committees, at least in Continental Europe (i.e. Civil Law system). You don't need to make new laws just update regulatory text.
  - nforgerit 2y ago
    The problem is that those regulatory committees always put some kind of idealistic nonplus ultra standards into the regulations without respecting the real world. "Sorry kids, no kindergarden here for you because the regulator requires us to build parking space for SUVs and obeying this means we can't build enough parking space for all your parents which would break another rule. So we'll do nothing."

jayelbe 2y ago

>Had the EU passed a similar law a decade ago, they would be stuck on mini or micro USB today. They did and (surprise!) we aren't. https://www.slashgear.com/micro-usb-formally-chosen-as-cellphone-charger-standard-by-european-standardization-bodies-29121828/ https://www.slashgear.com/micro-usb-formally-chosen-as-cellp...

ggreer 2y ago
The EU didn't mandate micro USB. It was a voluntary standard and it considered a manufacturer to be in compliance if they shipped an adapter (which is what Apple did). The fact that it was voluntary and allowed adapters is why USB-C managed to take off. Also it took until 2021 before the EU decided they needed to change the standard.
ciupicri 2y ago
Then how come iPhones didn't have mini or micro USB?

fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago

Lightning was a superior plug to USB-C and I, for one, am annoyed that Apple is dropping it.

fredski42 2y ago
I am curious about this supposed superiority. Can you explain?
- wao0uuno 2y ago
  It has a nice click when plugging in even on my 4 yo device. Lasts forever. Every cable feels the same and fits perfectly because they are all made to a standard. I have USB-C cables that are too loose or too tight. I have USB-C cables that click and that are so mushy I sometimes need to double check if they are in. USB-C wiggles in the port more than Lightning does. Lightning was a great connector both by design and because of the strict control Apple had over it. Am I sad it’s gone? Not really, but it was nice to have it when everyone else was stuck with micro usb <vomits>.
- wordofx 2y ago
  Despite what people think. Lightning port survived way longer than usb-c ports do. I’ve seen phones with the usb-c port with broken middle bit. Go wobbly and lost contact on the board in the phone. Let’s not even get into the terrible standard of usb-c where no 2 cables are the same. Some cables work on some devices…
  - freehorse 2y ago
    > Lightning port survived way longer than usb-c ports do Apple's manufactoring is usually more robust than most, so I doubt this is due to usb-c itself of the manufacturer. Personally I have seen bad usb-a port but never usb-c (and usb-c ports are supports to last for at least 10000 insert cycles, as per the standard). > no 2 cables are the same We can either have a single port supporting a variety of protocols, or, roughly, a port for each protocol. Considering the mostly hierarchical relationship between protocols, I very much prefer the former. Two usb-c cables are not be the same in order to sustain low prices for the lowest end of the protocols, else every cable would have to be a thunderbolt 5 cable costing 100$ or whatever. The problem is not the existence of the protocols, but the companies that make confusing marketing and the fact that the usb standards namings of the protocols is bad (see usb3.1 gen 2) (probably intended so by the same companies, but do not have any evidence or anything). Otherwise things are not that complicated.