10 ms·

We need a way to disable vehicle telemetry. No, a software switch is not enough. We need to be able to physically unplug the cellular modem entirely and have t

We need a way to disable vehicle telemetry. No, a software switch is not enough. We need to be able to physically unplug the cellular modem entirely and have the vehicle work with 100% functionality (barring features which inherently require cellular connectivity like turning the heating on remotely) Car manufacturers' features are mostly useless anyway thanks to Android Auto/Apple CarPlay

callc 2y ago
Thank you for summarizing my feeling so succinctly. The simplicity makes me think that law-makers can understand it.
NewJazz 2y ago
Instead, US senators will rail about the security risk of Chinese vehicles while refusing to provide competitive alternatives.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- remarkEon 2y ago
  What do Chinese vehicles have to do with this, or the ability of US Senators to "provide" alternatives? Sorry wasn't aware that the Ford family has someone in the US Senate.
  - NewJazz 2y ago
    If the US Senate can't effectively set industrial policy, then they don't deserve to call themselves oligarchs. They can and do though, and they are. https://www.peters.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senator-peters-urges-commerce-department-to-finalize-new-rule-to-protect-national-security-and-secure-us-automotive-supply-chains https://www.peters.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senato...
    - remarkEon 2y ago
      Okay fair enough, I didn't realize that that's what you meant. I agree, there should be a more coherent industrial policy that's nested with some specific national objectives. I too am very concerned about the lack of industrial capacity in this country. Feels like the lead up to WWI, in many ways.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
No device should be allowed to be sold without the ability to function without telemetry or sale of data to third parties. And telemetry and any data sharing should be opt in, as part of configuring the thing the first time. With a one click opt out of all.
- mjevans 2y ago
  Default Opted Out Opt In should NOT be required to enable features. Features should not be rented, and should be delivered as purchased with the car. Shipped but disabled features that take up additional vehicle weight (relative to lacking the feature) should not be allowed. (This phrasing is precise, to allow for silicon and software enhancements which are not a material change to vehicle manufacturing / design.) Setup processes should always empower the user. If there are multiple choices or paths a default may be indicated, but alternatives MUST NOT be in other locations, and MUST be displayed with equal prominence in a logically adjacent section of the dialog. Example from a website: 'Paperless' should not be force enabled by default; the ability to have paper or paperless billing should be radio boxes next to each other. Additional benefits (E.G. higher account interest rates) should not be tied to either selection.
  - IanCal 2y ago
    Devils advocate here If this made it more expensive, because having cars that are physically different is harder, would you prefer that? Why can't I simply not care that I don't get something I've not paid for and there's a doodad in the car that's capable of it? If the alternative is having to buy that feature or pay more for a car that doesn't have it, that sounds like a bad outcome.
    - shakna 2y ago
      It's a question of ownership. If I see fit to modify something I own, as has always been done, why am I not free to utilise a particular piece of my purchase? If I'm not free to do so - then do I actually still own my own product? Or is it now a lease? Why should the era of rebuilding your car simply end? There are already safety regs you need to comply with. The average hotrod modifies a considerable proportion of the car. Reusing the majority of the structure in ways the manufacturer did not intend.
rrr_oh_man 2y ago
My solution: Buy an old car...
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  modern cars are unfortunately much safer
  - martin_ 2y ago
    I for one am grateful for that fact ;)
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    To a large extent this depends on the car and depends what you mean by "old". Modern cars vs. 1970s cars? The older cars are completely hopeless. Modern cars vs. 15 year old cars? The older cars may have had things like ABS and side airbags as options rather than as standard, but you can find one that has them that doesn't have cellular telemetry.
    - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
      Cars from 2010 with optional ABS? Maybe domestic third world sub-$10k tuna cans? But the larger point is definitely true.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        Apparently the 2010 Chevy Cobalt was available without ABS. Definitely in the minority even 15 years ago though.
        rrr_oh_man 2y ago
        Nice find! Although, it seems to have been only available/produced in Brazil, Columbia, Russia, Uzbekistan, which I'd argue is in line with my original sentiment.
spike021 2y ago
I believe my new car has a fuse you can pull to disable the remote telemetry. However, it disables some useful features, like being able to set valet mode from the Toyota app (useful because some dealer service departments will take cars joy riding) and track the car usage. it also tracks tire pressures. sure the tire pressure can easily be checked manually with my Slime gauge but having it on the phone is handy.
- mulmen 2y ago
  Both of those features were available on cars before cellular connectivity.
  - spike021 2y ago
    and?
    - mulmen 2y ago
      And that means Toyota is choosing to link those features to cellular connectivity.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  You can't see the tire pressure on the dash?
  - spike021 2y ago
    yeah, you can. but I work from home and don't drive every day. sometimes I want to make sure I don't have a slow leak or something.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I've read disabled cellular modem on toyota prius also disables the microphone for bluetooth phone calls / handsfree commands. funny that.
  - 2y ago
mulmen 2y ago
Why would turning on the heating require cell service? If you’re out of key fob range do you really need to pre-heat the car? The only possible use of cell service is for infotainment and even that’s questionable in a world of ubiquitous cell phones.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I like the 'call emergency services on airbag deployment' too, on the fence about removing it, I guess if I had an apple watch that could do the same thing but then I'm just moving the surveillance from one ecosystem to another
- queuep 2y ago
  Schedule heating etc through their app
  - mulmen 2y ago
    The car can't keep time? How is the dashboard clock always right?
    - creshal 2y ago
      That's two different components, so they're made by two separate cottage industries in two different states to make sure you have leverage on more politicians. Connecting the two would increase the BOM by $0.1, which means a $1000 increase in retail price, and customers don't want to pay that, so clearly everything is the customers' fault. (/s)
      - mulmen 2y ago
        All the clocks in my BMW were synchronized.
    - fastasucan 2y ago
      It can keep time, but how can you schedule remotely?
modeless 2y ago
In many (all?) cars with cellular modems you can remove the SIM card to have this effect.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I would love a wiki of vehicles for simply 'how to rip out the SIM card' I thought I saw instructions somewhere for my 2020 prius but can't find it now. a few reddit threads asking about it, I like the suggestion that even if its eSim or somehow embedded in the cellular modem, "Disconnect the antenna! / shunt the telecommunication modems antenna with a resistor shunt. It will trick the radio into thinking the antennas still connected but won't allow any data to be going out they just won't get signal" https://www.reddit.com/r/Toyota/comments/1be9zuc/wheres_the_sim_card_located/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Toyota/comments/1be9zuc/wheres_the_...
donquichotte 2y ago
In Europe, this is mandated by law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
- naranjito 2y ago
  In Spain they soon will require V16 [0] too. Originally it was just a flashing light but then it was improved to use mobile networks to send an emergency call to authorities. And proving, that technically, it is possible to have something like ECall without deep integration into the car. No need of having always on connection to the network, enable on emergencies only. Thus no remote hacking of SIM/base band possible at random times, or broadcasting presence until used. Mechanic or user can check battery periodically, replace if low, just like refilling wiper fluid. Car could even cut all other electric systems after deploying the integrated autonomous V16-like system. Car manufacturers deciding to make their ECall implementations complex and privacy invading was their choice. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V16_warning_beacon_lights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V16_warning_beacon_lights
  - martin8412 2y ago
    This uses the LTE-M network, which is pretty cool. It doesn't do anything until you turn it on.
- ale42 2y ago
  AFAIK ECall uses a voice call with data encoded on the audio channel. This is not what telemetry does, it should be doable to leave the voice channel and disable any data connections. (But it's probably very hard to check for someone who has no background in emebedded systems). Plus, in theory an emergency call can be done without even using a SIM card, right (if network allows)?
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Yes and no. Ecall is but telemetry is not. And ecall only makes a call in case of a crash.
  - 2y ago
surajrmal 2y ago
It's pretty much industry standard for all consumer products to deliver metrics back to home base. Honestly there are many good reasons to do so and it does result in finding real problems and solving them. While I understand the argument that we did fine in these products for decades without them, the complexity of the products was also a lot less back then. Finding issues via metrics from the production fleet is an incredible tool and anyone who's deployed software to a server probably understands this. I'd rather focus on standardizing a transparent and privacy safe way to gather these metrics. Consumers would know what metrics are collected and there would be guarantees that privacy is kept. There are ways to accomplish this today. Providing a way to disable metrics is never going to be sufficient for anyone other than a power user.
- 0points 2y ago
  > Honestly there are many good reasons to do so and it does result in finding real problems and solving them. Honest question, what is a good reason to do this? My Logitech software sends telemetry to Logitech. My VW apparantly sends my GPS coordinates. How is this useful for improving their hardware?
  - surajrmal 2y ago
    I'm not sure I can defend all choices various vendors make, but there are plenty of signals that are helpful. Precise gps coordinates seem unnecessary, but some sort of region based information can help correlate whether there is a particular problem that might happen at far higher rates in hilly terrain or specific humidity levels. Users also often use products in a way that doesn't line up with how the product owner thinke it should be used. Metrics don't replace interviewing people but it might help you craft the right questions. In the case of a Logitech mouse, it might be useful to understand if people are actually using those extra features you've added or maybe it's worth removing in a future version. The most obvious metric that everyone wants to know is failure or crash rates. After a software update it's always good to know if those rates went up. Those errors may be recoverable, but it's good to try and understand them to improve reliability. Maybe pairing android auto with specific phone models is more problematic, or maybe trying to pair Bluetooth is particularly bad under specific conditions like high thermals in warmer climates. It's pretty difficult to interop testing with all possible parties in all conditions.
_yb2s 2y ago
> We need a way to disable vehicle telemetry It should have a standard UI for doing so, but if you are technically inclined it is usually trivial to do- pulling a fuse, or changing a setting over the OBD port. However, you will lose useful features like advanced charging controls, and starting the HVAC remotely on EVs.

callc 2y ago

Thank you for summarizing my feeling so succinctly. The simplicity makes me think that law-makers can understand it.

NewJazz 2y ago

Instead, US senators will rail about the security risk of Chinese vehicles while refusing to provide competitive alternatives.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
remarkEon 2y ago
What do Chinese vehicles have to do with this, or the ability of US Senators to "provide" alternatives? Sorry wasn't aware that the Ford family has someone in the US Senate.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  If the US Senate can't effectively set industrial policy, then they don't deserve to call themselves oligarchs. They can and do though, and they are. https://www.peters.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senator-peters-urges-commerce-department-to-finalize-new-rule-to-protect-national-security-and-secure-us-automotive-supply-chains https://www.peters.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senato...
  - remarkEon 2y ago
    Okay fair enough, I didn't realize that that's what you meant. I agree, there should be a more coherent industrial policy that's nested with some specific national objectives. I too am very concerned about the lack of industrial capacity in this country. Feels like the lead up to WWI, in many ways.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

No device should be allowed to be sold without the ability to function without telemetry or sale of data to third parties. And telemetry and any data sharing should be opt in, as part of configuring the thing the first time. With a one click opt out of all.

mjevans 2y ago
Default Opted Out Opt In should NOT be required to enable features. Features should not be rented, and should be delivered as purchased with the car. Shipped but disabled features that take up additional vehicle weight (relative to lacking the feature) should not be allowed. (This phrasing is precise, to allow for silicon and software enhancements which are not a material change to vehicle manufacturing / design.) Setup processes should always empower the user. If there are multiple choices or paths a default may be indicated, but alternatives MUST NOT be in other locations, and MUST be displayed with equal prominence in a logically adjacent section of the dialog. Example from a website: 'Paperless' should not be force enabled by default; the ability to have paper or paperless billing should be radio boxes next to each other. Additional benefits (E.G. higher account interest rates) should not be tied to either selection.
- IanCal 2y ago
  Devils advocate here If this made it more expensive, because having cars that are physically different is harder, would you prefer that? Why can't I simply not care that I don't get something I've not paid for and there's a doodad in the car that's capable of it? If the alternative is having to buy that feature or pay more for a car that doesn't have it, that sounds like a bad outcome.
  - shakna 2y ago
    It's a question of ownership. If I see fit to modify something I own, as has always been done, why am I not free to utilise a particular piece of my purchase? If I'm not free to do so - then do I actually still own my own product? Or is it now a lease? Why should the era of rebuilding your car simply end? There are already safety regs you need to comply with. The average hotrod modifies a considerable proportion of the car. Reusing the majority of the structure in ways the manufacturer did not intend.

rrr_oh_man 2y ago

My solution: Buy an old car...

whimsicalism 2y ago
modern cars are unfortunately much safer
- martin_ 2y ago
  I for one am grateful for that fact ;)
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  To a large extent this depends on the car and depends what you mean by "old". Modern cars vs. 1970s cars? The older cars are completely hopeless. Modern cars vs. 15 year old cars? The older cars may have had things like ABS and side airbags as options rather than as standard, but you can find one that has them that doesn't have cellular telemetry.
  - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
    Cars from 2010 with optional ABS? Maybe domestic third world sub-$10k tuna cans? But the larger point is definitely true.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      Apparently the 2010 Chevy Cobalt was available without ABS. Definitely in the minority even 15 years ago though.
      - rrr_oh_man 2y ago
        Nice find! Although, it seems to have been only available/produced in Brazil, Columbia, Russia, Uzbekistan, which I'd argue is in line with my original sentiment.

spike021 2y ago

I believe my new car has a fuse you can pull to disable the remote telemetry. However, it disables some useful features, like being able to set valet mode from the Toyota app (useful because some dealer service departments will take cars joy riding) and track the car usage. it also tracks tire pressures. sure the tire pressure can easily be checked manually with my Slime gauge but having it on the phone is handy.

mulmen 2y ago
Both of those features were available on cars before cellular connectivity.
- spike021 2y ago
  and?
  - mulmen 2y ago
    And that means Toyota is choosing to link those features to cellular connectivity.
NewJazz 2y ago
You can't see the tire pressure on the dash?
- spike021 2y ago
  yeah, you can. but I work from home and don't drive every day. sometimes I want to make sure I don't have a slow leak or something.
jazzyjackson 2y ago
I've read disabled cellular modem on toyota prius also disables the microphone for bluetooth phone calls / handsfree commands. funny that.
- 2y ago

mulmen 2y ago

Why would turning on the heating require cell service? If you’re out of key fob range do you really need to pre-heat the car? The only possible use of cell service is for infotainment and even that’s questionable in a world of ubiquitous cell phones.

jazzyjackson 2y ago
I like the 'call emergency services on airbag deployment' too, on the fence about removing it, I guess if I had an apple watch that could do the same thing but then I'm just moving the surveillance from one ecosystem to another
queuep 2y ago
Schedule heating etc through their app
- mulmen 2y ago
  The car can't keep time? How is the dashboard clock always right?
  - creshal 2y ago
    That's two different components, so they're made by two separate cottage industries in two different states to make sure you have leverage on more politicians. Connecting the two would increase the BOM by $0.1, which means a $1000 increase in retail price, and customers don't want to pay that, so clearly everything is the customers' fault. (/s)
    - mulmen 2y ago
      All the clocks in my BMW were synchronized.
  - fastasucan 2y ago
    It can keep time, but how can you schedule remotely?

modeless 2y ago

In many (all?) cars with cellular modems you can remove the SIM card to have this effect.

jazzyjackson 2y ago
I would love a wiki of vehicles for simply 'how to rip out the SIM card' I thought I saw instructions somewhere for my 2020 prius but can't find it now. a few reddit threads asking about it, I like the suggestion that even if its eSim or somehow embedded in the cellular modem, "Disconnect the antenna! / shunt the telecommunication modems antenna with a resistor shunt. It will trick the radio into thinking the antennas still connected but won't allow any data to be going out they just won't get signal" https://www.reddit.com/r/Toyota/comments/1be9zuc/wheres_the_sim_card_located/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Toyota/comments/1be9zuc/wheres_the_...

donquichotte 2y ago

In Europe, this is mandated by law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

naranjito 2y ago
In Spain they soon will require V16 [0] too. Originally it was just a flashing light but then it was improved to use mobile networks to send an emergency call to authorities. And proving, that technically, it is possible to have something like ECall without deep integration into the car. No need of having always on connection to the network, enable on emergencies only. Thus no remote hacking of SIM/base band possible at random times, or broadcasting presence until used. Mechanic or user can check battery periodically, replace if low, just like refilling wiper fluid. Car could even cut all other electric systems after deploying the integrated autonomous V16-like system. Car manufacturers deciding to make their ECall implementations complex and privacy invading was their choice. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V16_warning_beacon_lights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V16_warning_beacon_lights
- martin8412 2y ago
  This uses the LTE-M network, which is pretty cool. It doesn't do anything until you turn it on.
ale42 2y ago
AFAIK ECall uses a voice call with data encoded on the audio channel. This is not what telemetry does, it should be doable to leave the voice channel and disable any data connections. (But it's probably very hard to check for someone who has no background in emebedded systems). Plus, in theory an emergency call can be done without even using a SIM card, right (if network allows)?
wkat4242 2y ago
Yes and no. Ecall is but telemetry is not. And ecall only makes a call in case of a crash.
- 2y ago

surajrmal 2y ago

It's pretty much industry standard for all consumer products to deliver metrics back to home base. Honestly there are many good reasons to do so and it does result in finding real problems and solving them. While I understand the argument that we did fine in these products for decades without them, the complexity of the products was also a lot less back then. Finding issues via metrics from the production fleet is an incredible tool and anyone who's deployed software to a server probably understands this. I'd rather focus on standardizing a transparent and privacy safe way to gather these metrics. Consumers would know what metrics are collected and there would be guarantees that privacy is kept. There are ways to accomplish this today. Providing a way to disable metrics is never going to be sufficient for anyone other than a power user.

0points 2y ago
> Honestly there are many good reasons to do so and it does result in finding real problems and solving them. Honest question, what is a good reason to do this? My Logitech software sends telemetry to Logitech. My VW apparantly sends my GPS coordinates. How is this useful for improving their hardware?
- surajrmal 2y ago
  I'm not sure I can defend all choices various vendors make, but there are plenty of signals that are helpful. Precise gps coordinates seem unnecessary, but some sort of region based information can help correlate whether there is a particular problem that might happen at far higher rates in hilly terrain or specific humidity levels. Users also often use products in a way that doesn't line up with how the product owner thinke it should be used. Metrics don't replace interviewing people but it might help you craft the right questions. In the case of a Logitech mouse, it might be useful to understand if people are actually using those extra features you've added or maybe it's worth removing in a future version. The most obvious metric that everyone wants to know is failure or crash rates. After a software update it's always good to know if those rates went up. Those errors may be recoverable, but it's good to try and understand them to improve reliability. Maybe pairing android auto with specific phone models is more problematic, or maybe trying to pair Bluetooth is particularly bad under specific conditions like high thermals in warmer climates. It's pretty difficult to interop testing with all possible parties in all conditions.

_yb2s 2y ago

> We need a way to disable vehicle telemetry It should have a standard UI for doing so, but if you are technically inclined it is usually trivial to do- pulling a fuse, or changing a setting over the OBD port. However, you will lose useful features like advanced charging controls, and starting the HVAC remotely on EVs.