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My visit to American Apparel
- blurry 18y agoI am sick of stories of how American Apparel is such an ethical company because they pay above minimum wage and make their clothes in the US. Yes, the clothes are manufactured in LA and the workers get above minimum wage. However, at $25,000/yr that doesn't put them anywhere near a livable wage, and the fact AA makes and promotes what is essentially child porn far outweighs any benefits. This guy said it best (with actual photos): http://www.cracked.com/blog/american-apparel-ads-make-me-want-to-defile-things-i-shouldnt-want-to-defile/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/american-apparel-ads-make-me-wan...
- arockwell 18y agoWhat do you consider a livable wage? $25,000/yr is actually pretty good considering median household income is about $50k: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income.
- blurry 18y agoMy main point wasn't the exact amount... I rather wanted to point out that the puff piece describes their pay as "significantly above minimum wage" while in fact it's a measly $25,000/year. I may be wrong on this one but I live in New York and I know LA is only slightly cheaper... there is absolutely no way one could live in New York on $27,000 (got the figure via a cost-of-living city-to-city calculator). I mean, it's theoretically possible but not without subjecting yourself to Dickensian living conditions.
- josefresco 18y agoBlurry, it's great that you choose to live in one of the most expensive cities in the entire world thereby requiring you to make much more than the average American, however most people don't. These immigrant workers are living in and around LA (already) and I highly doubt there are many employers lining up to pay them the same wage.
- blurry 18y agoJose First, I am choosing to live in New York to exactly the same degree that those immigrant workers are choosing to live in LA, second, I am an immigrant worker myself, and third, as I pointed out, cost of living in LA is very similar to NY. If you want to argue on facts, let's hear something other than "you are spoiled and don't know what you are talking about".
- Retric 18y agoYou can live in NY on 15$ an hour. You need some roommates and you toss the car for public transport, but after that your cost of living is not that bad. Back in collage I shared my room with some random stranger and it was one of the best times of my life so sharing a room with someone is not the end times.
- blurry 18y agoBack in college. My point exactly.
- Retric 18y agoAt 15 US$ * 50h/week * 48weeks/year = 36,000 U.S. dollars living at 515 West 52nd St., New York, NY 10019 a 2bed 2 bath is 5,265 / month, but it's a block from central park. Split that 4 ways and your rent is 1,316 but utility costs are low. (There are cheaper places to live around there, but these are fairly nice apartments.) 15 US$ * 50h/week * 48weeks/year = 36,000 U.S. dollars, I had a single apartment at 1050$ per month and a car while making 38k so I know it's reasonable to make it like that. Now having a wife and kids on that is not going to happen in that area but NY is more a place for the young or the rich. Edit: 36k = 28k take home so about a grand a month after rent. PS: Trying to make it on 15$ an hour in NY, NY might seem stupid, but a good internship can be worth it.
- yummyfajitas 18y agoYou are also picking the most expensive place to live. A big 2 bed 2 bath duplex with a porch is $2100 up in Harlem (near 125th). That's $525/month split 4 ways, also a very nice apartment (3 blocks from the 4/5/6 train). If you work between lower manhattan and 33rd st, you can live in Jersey City and rent a huge 3 bedroom for $1500 ($500 split 3 ways). Commute time is 15-25 minutes.
- arockwell 18y agoLA does not seem to have very different numbers, but I'm not familar with the area so I can't really interpet the data on this page very well: http://www.city-data.com/city/Los-Angeles-California.html http://www.city-data.com/city/Los-Angeles-California.html
- utnick 18y agothere are a ton of people working at burger king or other restaurants, street vendors, bus ticket attendants, broadway ushers, and busboys that make less than that in nyc Its certainly not impossible. 15$ an hour is pretty good.
- blurry 18y agoIt's one thing to make sweeping statements about welfare of others and quite another to realistically look at what that means. I am nitpicking here but let's go over your list... I am going to break it down to how it really is in NYC (I presume LA is not that dissimilar): burger king workers - unhappiest people you'll see anywhere... excepting teens and other temporary situations, completely unemployable outside the fast food industry street vendors - mostly cash income, probably make more than reported $15/hour, probably have other jobs to support them through the cold winter months bus workers - unionized, make up to $70k/year broadway ushers - mostly volunteers or actors who only work until they "make it" and only to network with other theater people busboys - mostly illegal mexicans with little other choice, excepting some high end restaurants where they make more than $15/hour and do it as an apprenticeship to better paying jobs I think most people who say that $15/hour in a major city like New York or LA is pretty good would not themselves concede to subsist on that little while working that hard... and I know what I am talking about, having done some of those hard-labor jobs when I first immigrated into the US. It only works in temporary situations such as students or apprenticeships, or as a means to support higher artistic aspirations. I would bet all of my money that not a single person on here (including those 6 who upvoted your comment) would choose a career of a $15/hour laborer for themselves, and I think it's a little patronizing to say that it's ok for others.
- potatolicious 18y agoI agree with your post, but I think it's disingenuous to say that $15 is unacceptable because the rest of us won't accept it. My first job after moving out was $15/hr (though not in NYC, makes a difference), and while things were tough it was survivable. Would I go back to that job? Hell no. Hauling literally tons of crates around a factory floor each day, climbing inside freezing semi trailers in the dead of the Canadian winter... all for that kind of pay? No thanks. But that doesn't mean the pay is necessarily bad for someone who, unlike my fortunate self, has no choice in his jobs. I do agree though - in the context of NY or LA, $15 is not a survivable wage. It's the kind of wage that keeps you alive, but also keeps you trapped in your dead-end job forever.
- fallentimes 18y agoI guess I'd argue that people aren't entitled to a certain wage. The biggest problem is: switching jobs isn't as easy and transparent as it should be.
- yummyfajitas 18y agoYou can live 15 minutes outside manhattan on $25k/year, and do just fine. I did this my last year of grad school. Does having a roommate count as "Dickensian" living conditions?
- blurry 18y agoGrad school. My point exactly.
- yummyfajitas 18y agoWhat is your point? That "living with a roommate" == "dickensian living conditions"? The only changes to my lifestyle now that I have a real job is a) no roommates and b) I drink outside more than in, and pay less attention to happy hour.
- josefresco 18y agoWhat is more ethical; Employing workers for pennies in foreign countries or employing workers here in the US for several dollars above min wage? The foreign workers are probably elevated much more (in comparison to their peers) because of their job than their counterparts here in the US are, but exploiting this difference in living wage is not ethical in the least.
- sokoloff 18y agoIs embargoing the foreign workers, who are perfectly willing (an understatement in many cases) to work for the wages being offered, ethical? I would say no. I personally feel that free trade is far more ethical than nationalist isolation/protectionism. (It's not just Americans that are "entitled" to a high standard of living.)
- fallentimes 18y agoAmerican Apparel's just marketing towards the people who hate outsourcing and think buying "Made in America" is important. Most people fall for it; some do not. A better question: why is an American more entitled to a job than someone living in another country? The problem with most of the outsourcing arguments I've heard is that they come down to value judgments.
- potatolicious 18y agoI think the most cogent (and only) argument for nationalistic job protectionism is the fact that others are doing the same thing. If other countries are reluctant to export their jobs to you, you would obviously avoid exporting jobs to them in the vain effort to keep employment in your country alive. I do agree though - I dislike the "Buy American" argument. Other countries are out-doing us in many industries; instead of pledging allegiance to buying inferior goods and services, we really should be fighting back by innovating and simply making our stuff better.
- Prrometheus 18y agoAmericans don't make $45,000/year because we held on to our low-skill manufacturing jobs.
- opticksversi 18y agoIf other countries are reluctant to export their jobs to you, you would obviously avoid exporting jobs to them in the vain effort to keep employment in your country alive. Why might one want to keep employment in his country alive?
- jimbokun 18y agoEliza, is that you?
- opticksversi 18y agoThis one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA No.
- Jebdm 18y agoI'm not necessarily saying that AA doesn't "make and promote what is essentially child porn", or that I'm siding with them in any way, but "child porn" is a pretty heavy accusation and you should back it up. The link you provided doesn't count. First of all, it's on a humor site, and the article definitely seems to belong there. But more importantly, it provides no evidence that the models are underage, the photos it shows don't appear to be me to be of underage girls, the photos aren't quite pornographic anyways (though admittedly fairly close), and it doesn't even provide any evidence that AA attempted to represent them as underage. I'm completely willing to hear that AA is making child porn--I have no affiliation with them or anything like that--but you haven't provided any evidence and therefore you shouldn't make the claim.
- blurry 18y agoJeb I agree with you that the models are not technically underage. Moreover, I know from previous articles about AA that they make the models sign releases confirming they are of age. However, I think that makes it worse and I'd like to explain why. We already know that what constitutes porn is in fact subjective and was "officially" defined as such by the Supreme Court: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio So what I'd like to point out is that the very reason that AA needs that little signature is because they know they are (1) making pornographic ads and (2) using models that look underage. If either of those two were untrue, the free-wheeling, open-minded people at AA would surely not resort to legal means to cover their ass. As far as not providing evidence, what is harder evidence than actual photos of AA ads? I don't see how it's relevant what website they are posted on. Photos are photos. But hey, I am happy to link to more. If you don't think these are prime pedophile material, I don't even know what to say... you must be one "open-minded" dude. http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2006_07_10_9.jpg http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2006_07_10_9.jpg http://www.wasuvi.com/images/scan0004.jpg http://www.wasuvi.com/images/scan0004.jpg http://www.adrants.com/images/the_tap_panty.jpg http://www.adrants.com/images/the_tap_panty.jpg http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/aaad.jpg http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/aaad.jpg http://www.jenisfamous.com/uploaded_images/leggings-720878.jpg http://www.jenisfamous.com/uploaded_images/leggings-720878.j... http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/21343_1_230.jpeg http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/21343_1_230....
- utsmokingaces 18y agoHave you seen their clothing? They are bland and tasteless. They are wal-mart clothes for 3x the price. Having "American" in this brand will make countries laugh at how unsophisticated we are. You are going to make something in America at least make something good like New Balance. We don't care to known for making neon green tights.
- eru 18y agoI do not know if you are right about the laughing. A lot of German companies have "Deutsche" in their name. Take Deutsche Bank for example.
- josefresco 18y ago"wal-mart clothes for 3x the price" Did you ever stop to think that maybe Wal-Mart clothes are 1/3 the price of what they should be? And I don't think we as Americans needs to worry about other countries perceiving us as unsophisticated because of AA. There is plenty of low hanging fruit in that category already.
- utsmokingaces 18y agoYou are trying to get into the ethics of global trade. I am sure glad I can get a plain t-shirt for $6 instead of $20 for AA. But that is a long debate. Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_%28clothing%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_%28clothing%29 They are a Spanish company that do not outsource their manufacturing. They are able to keep their costs down and deliver the most trendy clothes to their customers. AA on the other hand made clothes that look like 1970s gym clothes.
- bd 18y agoYup, Zara is incredible company. I usually don't care about apparel brands, but I have a soft spot for Zara. They consistently create nice stuff for very reasonable prices. They make clothes that make you look good, as opposed to having attractive models looking good in whatever. Their way of doing business is very hackerish (in the best sense), beautifully optimized. No external marketing, they just put their shops in premium locations, letting their wares "sell themselves". Instead of paying expensive prima donna fashion designers, they employ an army of young talented people. They constantly monitor fashion trends and consumer demands in their stores, able to rapidly innovate designs and change their production. Their retail stock is completely rotated every two weeks, which creates an extra incentive for customers to come back to check what's new, and it also encourages Woot-type impulse buying, as the stock is limited. Using state-of-the-art logistics they manage to keep their operations costs down. Thanks to their efficient procedures they can create better products for cheaper prices than competition.
- ojbyrne 18y agohttp://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_26/b3939108_mz017.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_26/b3939108_... 'But BusinessWeek spoke with seven former workers who say they were offended by what they called a highly sexual atmosphere at American Apparel. They told stories of senior managers who pursued sexual relationships with less senior colleagues and rewarded their favorites with promotions, company cars, and apartments. "It was a company built on lechery," says a former stock person. "I thought it was a male contemporary perspective on feminism, but it turns out to be just a gimmick," says another ex-employee. And another: "I made sure to stay away from the store when I knew [Charney] was coming into town. It's not one person -- he's aiming for all women.' I generally have little patience with these kinds of feel-good PR-ish stories.
- tptacek 18y agoHe didn't write about whether he received a dildo. Like many American Apparel visitors apparently do.
- josefresco 18y agoThe negative Business Week article you referenced is doing the same thing as the source article, just the other way around. We can cherry pick negatives all day long, and the other side can do the same with positives. Take the lessons learned from AA and make your company better. Just because Charney is a little nutty doesn't mean the entire company/model/approach is bad. In fact I think the business world could use more people like Charney with an open mind and free (if not overly-sexual) spirit.
- blurry 18y agoForcing sexual relationships on people who work for you (or forcing a reporter to watch you have sex and masturbate) is hardly "overly-sexual". You said yourself that AA workers could not get the same money anywhere else... surely you don't think it's acceptable for Charney to ask his employees for sex in a situation where (according to you) he has so much power? In general, I think good/legal vs. bad/illegal behavior is not just a simple sum of its parts where, say, 3 good deeds outweigh 1 rotten deed by 2. After all, when your neighbor turns out to be a child predator, are you going to say, oh well, that's ok because he's been a good church-going fella for the past 30 years?
- mwerty 18y agoI'm embarrassed that I got past the first two paragraphs.
- nazgulnarsil 18y agoI tend to ignore any news story whose aim is breeding righteous indignation. vote with you dollars, not a gun (courts and legislation).
- dmv 18y agoI'm being prompted for a twitter account and password when loading that page. Anyone else? Looks like it is this script: http://twitter.com/statuses/user_timeline/venturehacks.json?callback=twitterCallback2&count=5 http://twitter.com/statuses/user_timeline/venturehacks.json?... Seems a little rude. I don't like a generic dialog box popping up asking for my credentials to an unrelated site...
- Zev 18y agoI didn't get said twitter box - and I generally have to login to twitter every time I browse there due to Twitterrific nuking the cookie.
- nivi 18y agoHi dmv, Are you still having a problem? Sometimes the Twitter widget in the sidebar at http://venturehacks.com http://venturehacks.com gets a little wacky. I believe it is an intermittent problem with Twitter. I thought it was very rare but perhaps it is more common than I thought? Is anyone else having this problem? I couldn't recreate it. Thanks!
- cpr 18y agoJust have to say, "T-shirts are underwear." (Watch this get downmodded out of oblivion.]
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- mattmaroon 18y agoI think he says: "This should embarrass the heck out of any executive who thinks he has to outsource in order to find cheap labor. Or at least call into question his fundamental competence as a leader. If American Apparel can manufacture low margin clothing efficiently enough to beat the sweatshops (in California no less), then anyone should be able to. If they try hard enough." I think he's misunderstanding why their business model works. Sending your commodity product to China to be make extra-cheaply is one strategy. Building a high quality product that proudly displays it's Made-In-America-ness and tugs at our patriotic heartstrings while charging 2x the price as the Chinese-outsourced competition is another. There is room, in almost every industry, for both a Kia and Lexus. And you do have to outsource to find cheap labor. $12-$15/hr with full benefits is not cheap for a factory. I'm guessing he just misphrased what he meant on that one.
- nivi 18y agoThanks Matt, it is poorly phrased. I will change it.
- brandonkm 18y agoAmerican Apparel is an amazing company. 'A 5,000 person, $500 million low margin clothing company, operating from a single factory in the least business-friendly state of one of the highest "cost" manufacturing countries. Beating the overseas sweatshops and still growing rapidly.' /article