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It's not just about one CEO. Thoughts on why not to condone vigilante justice: * You might have mixed feelings about one particular target, but what about emb

by neilv 2y ago

It's not just about one CEO. Thoughts on why not to condone vigilante justice: * You might have mixed feelings about one particular target, but what about emboldening all the people who would choose other targets? Think of all the mentally unstable people, with access to firearms, who believe the most ridiculous propaganda that's being shoveled to them, about being under existential threat from domestic enemies. Won't any surge of political murders presumably be by the sickest, stupidest, and shittiest people? * What about ostensible threats against CEOs and other powerful people being used as a pretext to give them special protection by the state, and corresponding encroachment on the liberties of others? Could this elevate a fascist overclass even more?

glimshe 2y ago
The healthcare situation is so difficult for so many people that most would probably agree with everything you're saying but still create an exception for health insurance executives. Your might see more sympathy for vaping companies than health insurance.
- neilv 2y ago
  Maybe we can't create an exception in isolation. Sure, you can jury-nullify conviction of a particular one. But if that inspires a dozen unstable other people, to think they'll be heroes for killing some prominent liberal/ethnic/gay/trans/etc. person, then, even if you later convict those murderers, it won't bring back the victims. What we should instead be doing is figuring out how to regulate and prosecute some of the many awful abuses and injustices in society. We have the government framework for it. It's just not been working as well as it could.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
    > we should instead be doing is figuring out how to regulate and prosecute some of the many awful abuses and injustices in society There's nothing to figure out. We know what the abuses are and we know how they can be fixed. Its just that the abusers are in control of the system and will prevent any attempt lesson that power. If you know of way that can be overcome, let us know.
    - neilv 2y ago
      In our own little corner of HN, maybe we can stop celebrating and enabling greed and sociopathy. For example, imagine if OpenAI had hired a bunch of principled people who were aligned with their ostensible charter. Instead, when it came down to actions rather than words, it looked like almost every employee would rather have a monetary bonus.
      - piva00 2y ago
        > In our own little corner of HN, maybe we can stop celebrating and enabling greed and sociopathy. It's oxymoronic though, as much as I agree with you this corner of the internet is first and foremost brought by an accelerator which celebrates greed and sociopathy above all.
    - trilbyglens 2y ago
      Historically the answer has been violence. Just ask czar Nicholas, or Louis XVI. The sad thing is that we as Americans have forgotten what freedom actually is, and what it actually means. It's been conflated with doing whatever you want. People have been tricked into handing over power to "fix" things when in reality we've had the power to do so all along. It's getting to the point now where we've let two monolithic parties completely corner all political power, and it will be very hard to wrench it away again. Once the Democratic levers are fatally weakened there is no other route bit violence left. Americans have just sleep-walked their culture to this point.
      - M95D 2y ago
        Historically, life became even worse after the violence. In some countries it did eventually improve after decades of more violence, in other countries it lead to very long periods of totalitarianism. So, be careful what you wish for! With advanced surveillance tools of today and the resources to add more, a totalitarian regime would be PERMENANT.
noprocrasted 2y ago
> threats against CEOs and other powerful people being used as a pretext to give them special protection by the state Isn't this already the case? Crimes affecting high profile people get prioritized. In some places police doesn't even come out for property crimes anymore, but that's only for the plebs. You are likely to get a much better response if you're rich and/or well-connected. Furthermore, due to the complexity of the law, access to justice requires significant lawyer efforts, which you can afford if you're rich. If you're not, you get to try your luck with the overworked public defender.
- Gud 2y ago
  They are not "high profile people". They are the ruling class. And I am glad people are waking up to the reality they live in.
invalidname 2y ago
I don't even think that CEO was the problem. It's the lack of government regulation and public option in America. The problem is the politicians. I saw someone mention that online and the response was "now you get it". People are advocating targeting politicians too. That is no different from Jan 6th people etc. I see people who are supposed to be smart making such insane "structured" claims. The level of cognitive dissonance in support of that guy is absolutely insane.
jmclnx 2y ago
> Think of all the mentally unstable people, with access to firearms, who believe the most ridiculous propaganda that's being shoveled to them That is a misnomer. Most people with guns are not unstable, but has been influenced by a barrage of propaganda like "it is OK to take the law into your own hands", "Only real men own guns" and even trump as president got into the act in 2020 when he lost the election. 99.999% mentally unstable people harm themselves instead of others. Just look at US entertainment, most of it is about a single person, usually with a gun, getting his way using violence instead of methods that are legal. Maybe with this sad occurrence, CEOs will force their bought and paid for congress critters to do something about gun violence in the US. You know, like real gun control.
drewcoo 2y ago
> Think of all the mentally unstable people, with access to firearms, who believe the most ridiculous propaganda that's being shoveled to them, about being under existential threat from domestic enemies. Anyone who assassinates is considered "mentally unstable." Any Adolf Eichmann walking around today is considered an innocent who is just doing business.
thefz 2y ago
Reality is simple. Across all religions and philosophies, one simple message is delivered: do not do to others what you do not want others to do to you. In simpler words: don't be an asshole. Thompson violated this simple rule. This killing showed that as Chomsky stated, given enough time the police becomes private security for the ultra wealthy. The difference in response when a member of the oligarchy is a victim versus when he is a perpetrator is staggering. I am glad that finally Americans are seeing with their eyes that unbridled capitalism is shit for everybody except for the super rich, and wish for more and more revolts. Let's call it a second French revolution.
tim333 2y ago
I'm not sure this is vigilante justice, I mean what crime did the CEO commit? It's probably closer to what he's charged with, murder "intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policies of a unit of government..." Which I guess is a form of terrorism - Mangione killing a CEO to protest the health system is along the same lines as the IRA killing British military to protest the occupation of parts of Ireland and bad treatment of the catholics. I'm not sure how it ends. With the IRA they had talks and agreed to be a bit nicer the the catholics. Probably Mangione will be jailed but the popular support for him suggests something should be changed with the health system.

by neilv 2y ago

glimshe 2y ago

The healthcare situation is so difficult for so many people that most would probably agree with everything you're saying but still create an exception for health insurance executives. Your might see more sympathy for vaping companies than health insurance.

neilv 2y ago
Maybe we can't create an exception in isolation. Sure, you can jury-nullify conviction of a particular one. But if that inspires a dozen unstable other people, to think they'll be heroes for killing some prominent liberal/ethnic/gay/trans/etc. person, then, even if you later convict those murderers, it won't bring back the victims. What we should instead be doing is figuring out how to regulate and prosecute some of the many awful abuses and injustices in society. We have the government framework for it. It's just not been working as well as it could.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
  > we should instead be doing is figuring out how to regulate and prosecute some of the many awful abuses and injustices in society There's nothing to figure out. We know what the abuses are and we know how they can be fixed. Its just that the abusers are in control of the system and will prevent any attempt lesson that power. If you know of way that can be overcome, let us know.
  - neilv 2y ago
    In our own little corner of HN, maybe we can stop celebrating and enabling greed and sociopathy. For example, imagine if OpenAI had hired a bunch of principled people who were aligned with their ostensible charter. Instead, when it came down to actions rather than words, it looked like almost every employee would rather have a monetary bonus.
    - piva00 2y ago
      > In our own little corner of HN, maybe we can stop celebrating and enabling greed and sociopathy. It's oxymoronic though, as much as I agree with you this corner of the internet is first and foremost brought by an accelerator which celebrates greed and sociopathy above all.
  - trilbyglens 2y ago
    Historically the answer has been violence. Just ask czar Nicholas, or Louis XVI. The sad thing is that we as Americans have forgotten what freedom actually is, and what it actually means. It's been conflated with doing whatever you want. People have been tricked into handing over power to "fix" things when in reality we've had the power to do so all along. It's getting to the point now where we've let two monolithic parties completely corner all political power, and it will be very hard to wrench it away again. Once the Democratic levers are fatally weakened there is no other route bit violence left. Americans have just sleep-walked their culture to this point.
    - M95D 2y ago
      Historically, life became even worse after the violence. In some countries it did eventually improve after decades of more violence, in other countries it lead to very long periods of totalitarianism. So, be careful what you wish for! With advanced surveillance tools of today and the resources to add more, a totalitarian regime would be PERMENANT.

noprocrasted 2y ago

> threats against CEOs and other powerful people being used as a pretext to give them special protection by the state Isn't this already the case? Crimes affecting high profile people get prioritized. In some places police doesn't even come out for property crimes anymore, but that's only for the plebs. You are likely to get a much better response if you're rich and/or well-connected. Furthermore, due to the complexity of the law, access to justice requires significant lawyer efforts, which you can afford if you're rich. If you're not, you get to try your luck with the overworked public defender.

Gud 2y ago
They are not "high profile people". They are the ruling class. And I am glad people are waking up to the reality they live in.

invalidname 2y ago

I don't even think that CEO was the problem. It's the lack of government regulation and public option in America. The problem is the politicians. I saw someone mention that online and the response was "now you get it". People are advocating targeting politicians too. That is no different from Jan 6th people etc. I see people who are supposed to be smart making such insane "structured" claims. The level of cognitive dissonance in support of that guy is absolutely insane.

jmclnx 2y ago

> Think of all the mentally unstable people, with access to firearms, who believe the most ridiculous propaganda that's being shoveled to them That is a misnomer. Most people with guns are not unstable, but has been influenced by a barrage of propaganda like "it is OK to take the law into your own hands", "Only real men own guns" and even trump as president got into the act in 2020 when he lost the election. 99.999% mentally unstable people harm themselves instead of others. Just look at US entertainment, most of it is about a single person, usually with a gun, getting his way using violence instead of methods that are legal. Maybe with this sad occurrence, CEOs will force their bought and paid for congress critters to do something about gun violence in the US. You know, like real gun control.

drewcoo 2y ago

> Think of all the mentally unstable people, with access to firearms, who believe the most ridiculous propaganda that's being shoveled to them, about being under existential threat from domestic enemies. Anyone who assassinates is considered "mentally unstable." Any Adolf Eichmann walking around today is considered an innocent who is just doing business.

thefz 2y ago

Reality is simple. Across all religions and philosophies, one simple message is delivered: do not do to others what you do not want others to do to you. In simpler words: don't be an asshole. Thompson violated this simple rule. This killing showed that as Chomsky stated, given enough time the police becomes private security for the ultra wealthy. The difference in response when a member of the oligarchy is a victim versus when he is a perpetrator is staggering. I am glad that finally Americans are seeing with their eyes that unbridled capitalism is shit for everybody except for the super rich, and wish for more and more revolts. Let's call it a second French revolution.

tim333 2y ago

I'm not sure this is vigilante justice, I mean what crime did the CEO commit? It's probably closer to what he's charged with, murder "intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policies of a unit of government..." Which I guess is a form of terrorism - Mangione killing a CEO to protest the health system is along the same lines as the IRA killing British military to protest the occupation of parts of Ireland and bad treatment of the catholics. I'm not sure how it ends. With the IRA they had talks and agreed to be a bit nicer the the catholics. Probably Mangione will be jailed but the popular support for him suggests something should be changed with the health system.