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> For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. It works for folks who were either already inclined to "go out and

> For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. It works for folks who were either already inclined to "go out and do things" or those who already had established social groups. We will see how this pans out in a generation or two. I wonder if this would vary by country and culture? I wonder if there is a statistically noticeable difference in experience between places like the US and Northern Europe that seem to be more more work-focused compared to Southern European countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance Where is this reputation coming from? Every single engineer from Greece and Italy and some from France I met complained about long working hours being the norm and a cultural issue there. If he left the office before 4PM the boss would ask him "are you only having a half day today?" with the expectation being workday is at least till 6pm. I feel like this is some overly romanticized picture coming from Americans or rich northern europeans who think people in southern Europe are lazy and chilling all day instead of working their butts off, because that's what they saw in movies or on their holidays there. It's actually the opposite. Workers in work focused but rich countries with strong economies have better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies.
- mejutoco 2y ago
  > better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. Spain is not a struggling economy. Source: an article on the Economist this week about Spain growing at a similar pace as the US this year.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    The economy of many poor African and Asian countries is also growing, that doesn't mean the economy is stellar and that WLB is amazing. Also, GDP growth is a shit measurements of WLB and general welfare of the working population. For example, if a lot of rich foreigners, tourists and retirees are buying properties and spending money on Airbnbs in your sunny country lifting up the GDP that has no impact on the welfare and WLB of white collar workers working in software or hardware engineering for example. Which is how Spain still has one of the highest youth unemployment rares in the EU. But yeah, Spain is a bit better, but Italy WLB is definitely nothing to write him about according to Italians who emigrated.
    - mejutoco 2y ago
      Spain and Italy are in the top 6 economies in Europe (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_...) I do not think your comparison to some developing economies applies. I really recommend the economist article I mentioned. Spain has much to improve but some of those prejudices are becoming unfounded. The original claim was > laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. And it has been proven Spain s economy is not stagnating. That is false.
      - Cumpiler69 2y ago
        >Spain and Italy are in the top 6 economies in Europe This doesn't refute my point on poor WLB in Italy. China is the world's second economy and its WLB is pretty Terrible. GDP!=WLB >some of those prejudices are becoming unfounded It's just what the people who emigrate out are saying. It's not prejudice.
        mejutoco 2y ago
        I see your point. The original claim I have issue with is > Workers in work focused but rich countries with strong economies have better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. There is no official definition of "laid back country", but I assume Germany would fit your "rich countries with strong economies". I am also assuming that Spain (the south of EU) fits your "laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies". The problem with that mental model is that right now Germany's economy is struggling and Spain's economy is getting stronger. My point is this dichotomy does not match reality. The prejudice is thinking that Spain and Italy are "laid back" and that their economy is struggling, while Germany is somehow "not laid back" and their economy is strong. At the moment, this model (at least in Europe) is more based on ideas of 2010 or so that in reality. There is also the assumption that WLB is better in Germany, which is very debatable. If that is the case, what does it mean to be a "laid back country"? Does it mean good WLB, or does it mean lazy? To me, in addition to the countries not being in the assumed situation, the mental model contradicts itself there (bad WLB+laid back vs good WLB+ not laid back). > It's just what the people who emigrate out are saying. It's not prejudice. I am one of those people myself. I do not mean bad by it, and I am not implying you are a bad person or anything like that. It just does not match the current reality of these countries IMO. It fits more a stereotype of 2010-2020.
- mikem170 2y ago
  > I feel like this is some overly romanticized picture coming from Americans or rich northern europeans who think people in southern Europe are lazy and chilling all day instead of working their butts off I understand what you mean, but didn't mean to come at it from that angle necessarily. Less work isn't the only way to have a different work/life balance. I was thinking more about things to do outside of work that are more part of the culture, things like tapas and spending time at cafes and town squares, i.e. people typically socializing more outside of work. For example, I assume someone who enjoys the third place feel of an iconic UK pub would have an easier time fending off work from home cabin fever than someone who lives in a suburb bereft of such places. I wondered if, statistically, people in some cultures had an easier time working from home due to reasons like this.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >I was thinking more about things to do outside of work You still need jobs and money for those. They aren't free. And tapas can be had all over the world. You don't need to live in Spain to enjoy Spanish food. People in Spain wouldn't be leaving the sun, beaches and tapas to go work in depressing Germany, UK, NL or Sweden for no reason.
    - mikem170 2y ago
      I appreciate the input, but that doesn't really answer my question.

Cumpiler69 2y ago

>countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance Where is this reputation coming from? Every single engineer from Greece and Italy and some from France I met complained about long working hours being the norm and a cultural issue there. If he left the office before 4PM the boss would ask him "are you only having a half day today?" with the expectation being workday is at least till 6pm. I feel like this is some overly romanticized picture coming from Americans or rich northern europeans who think people in southern Europe are lazy and chilling all day instead of working their butts off, because that's what they saw in movies or on their holidays there. It's actually the opposite. Workers in work focused but rich countries with strong economies have better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies.

mejutoco 2y ago
> better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. Spain is not a struggling economy. Source: an article on the Economist this week about Spain growing at a similar pace as the US this year.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  The economy of many poor African and Asian countries is also growing, that doesn't mean the economy is stellar and that WLB is amazing. Also, GDP growth is a shit measurements of WLB and general welfare of the working population. For example, if a lot of rich foreigners, tourists and retirees are buying properties and spending money on Airbnbs in your sunny country lifting up the GDP that has no impact on the welfare and WLB of white collar workers working in software or hardware engineering for example. Which is how Spain still has one of the highest youth unemployment rares in the EU. But yeah, Spain is a bit better, but Italy WLB is definitely nothing to write him about according to Italians who emigrated.
  - mejutoco 2y ago
    Spain and Italy are in the top 6 economies in Europe (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_...) I do not think your comparison to some developing economies applies. I really recommend the economist article I mentioned. Spain has much to improve but some of those prejudices are becoming unfounded. The original claim was > laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. And it has been proven Spain s economy is not stagnating. That is false.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >Spain and Italy are in the top 6 economies in Europe This doesn't refute my point on poor WLB in Italy. China is the world's second economy and its WLB is pretty Terrible. GDP!=WLB >some of those prejudices are becoming unfounded It's just what the people who emigrate out are saying. It's not prejudice.
      - mejutoco 2y ago
        I see your point. The original claim I have issue with is > Workers in work focused but rich countries with strong economies have better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. There is no official definition of "laid back country", but I assume Germany would fit your "rich countries with strong economies". I am also assuming that Spain (the south of EU) fits your "laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies". The problem with that mental model is that right now Germany's economy is struggling and Spain's economy is getting stronger. My point is this dichotomy does not match reality. The prejudice is thinking that Spain and Italy are "laid back" and that their economy is struggling, while Germany is somehow "not laid back" and their economy is strong. At the moment, this model (at least in Europe) is more based on ideas of 2010 or so that in reality. There is also the assumption that WLB is better in Germany, which is very debatable. If that is the case, what does it mean to be a "laid back country"? Does it mean good WLB, or does it mean lazy? To me, in addition to the countries not being in the assumed situation, the mental model contradicts itself there (bad WLB+laid back vs good WLB+ not laid back). > It's just what the people who emigrate out are saying. It's not prejudice. I am one of those people myself. I do not mean bad by it, and I am not implying you are a bad person or anything like that. It just does not match the current reality of these countries IMO. It fits more a stereotype of 2010-2020.
mikem170 2y ago
> I feel like this is some overly romanticized picture coming from Americans or rich northern europeans who think people in southern Europe are lazy and chilling all day instead of working their butts off I understand what you mean, but didn't mean to come at it from that angle necessarily. Less work isn't the only way to have a different work/life balance. I was thinking more about things to do outside of work that are more part of the culture, things like tapas and spending time at cafes and town squares, i.e. people typically socializing more outside of work. For example, I assume someone who enjoys the third place feel of an iconic UK pub would have an easier time fending off work from home cabin fever than someone who lives in a suburb bereft of such places. I wondered if, statistically, people in some cultures had an easier time working from home due to reasons like this.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >I was thinking more about things to do outside of work You still need jobs and money for those. They aren't free. And tapas can be had all over the world. You don't need to live in Spain to enjoy Spanish food. People in Spain wouldn't be leaving the sun, beaches and tapas to go work in depressing Germany, UK, NL or Sweden for no reason.
  - mikem170 2y ago
    I appreciate the input, but that doesn't really answer my question.