7 ms·

A lot of people will simply not do this, even if they know they should. For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most reali

by phil21 2y ago

A lot of people will simply not do this, even if they know they should. For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. It works for folks who were either already inclined to "go out and do things" or those who already had established social groups. We will see how this pans out in a generation or two. Having to have everything scheduled weeks in advance is utterly exhausting and incredibly anxiety inducing to me. If I didn't already have friends I could do spontaneous things with, I'm not sure how I'd be able to have any sort of social life at all. I certainly am not alone in this, even if I'm a minority.

dinosaurdynasty 2y ago
> Having to have everything scheduled weeks in advance I don't see how WFH makes this worse, in fact it probably makes it better (less time spent commuting, more ability to end the day early with a flexible employer, etc)
- doubled112 2y ago
  It worked this way for me in the neighbourhood. Maybe it was pandemic, maybe it was all that free time, but suddenly we all noticed each other. I had never even spoken to some of these people before. Suddenly we were all spending time in the same place instead of waving as we drove by on our way to work and taking kids to activities. Now I have friends. I don’t go to work then come home and stay inside. Plus working from home I have time to get involved in some of the kid’s activities and made more friends.
- droidist2 2y ago
  If you don't waste that time scrolling Instagram, Reddit, etc.
- skeeter2020 2y ago
  If you are or know someone who uses the time savings from not commuting to persue anything outside the house, you are in the vast minority.
  - defrost 2y ago
    That seems like a local from your PoV thing. That overwhelming majority of people I know that have been doing WFH on and off for a decade work regular hours and spend the remainder (time otherwise commuting) socialising (outside the house), sports, gardening, building projects, etc. IRL AFK at least - the 24/7 gamers and shutin's likely have a different world view, but they appear to be in a minoity albeit one perhaps growing.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > That overwhelming majority of people I know You probably wont get to know a lot of people who don't go outside their house, so pretty biased sample there.
      - defrost 2y ago
        At least as biased as the sample of the commenter I replied to. Which is pretty much the subtext of my comment.
  - jmathai 2y ago
    I don’t think they are in the majority, but it doesn’t have to be typical social activities like sports. I spend time WFH dropping and picking up my 3yo from pre school. In doing so I meet a number of parents from the community.
  - cableshaft 2y ago
    Not necessarily during the week, but I have more energy and time for it on the weekends, thanks to not commuting. Do some cleaning during the week so there's not so much that needs to be done on the weekend.
- chiefalchemist 2y ago
  It can be both. For some WFH will be a big win. But for others a big loss. How big the big losse are will depend on the individual and their willingness to take action(s) to mitigate the loss.
doublepg23 2y ago
I don’t think I’d have agreed to volunteer at church as much as I do without WFH.
nobodyandproud 2y ago
If it weren’t for church services and semi-regular in-office work, my in-person contact would be just wife and kids. I believe the Japanese have a near analogous term for this: Hikikomori.
- asp_hornet 2y ago
  That is not what Hikikomori means. Hikikomori is a complete removal of oneself from society often including family and work.
  - nobodyandproud 2y ago
    And “analogous” means “similar”, not identical. So what’s your point?
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Being a hikikomori also precludes immediate family members including parents, spouse, etc.; you often don't even leave your room let alone your house/apartment. Hikikomori is a level or two beyond what most westerners would think of when imagining an extremely introverted or reclusive person. The condition is more akin to PTSD stemming from severe mental/social trauma. For further context, the etymology of hikikomori is to "hiku" (literally "pull", contextually in this case to "pull back" from daily life) and "komoru" (to "shelter up", in this case most likely sheltering in your bedroom or mancave or similar safe space).
      - nobodyandproud 2y ago
        Well, no. Hikikomori isn’t an all or nothing state of being. What makes the news and what makes it to the Western media are the most extreme cases. The actual development to the extreme (or not) can be quite gradual.
- ilbeeper 2y ago
  Having regular contact with a wife and kids makes you far from being a Hikikomori.
throw646577 2y ago
> For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. It works for folks who were either already inclined to "go out and do things" or those who already had established social groups. We will see how this pans out in a generation or two. Right on all points, I think.
ozim 2y ago
I WFH since pandemic. I have it good with current company and my home setup is a blast. But next year resolution is that I will be renting a desk in a coworking space. While I don’t have problem as I have enough fiends and family to hang out with. I believe that I leave business opportunities lying somewhere there on the table and if current contract ends I will be on much worse bargaining position than when I will having more business connections hopefully created by sharing co work space.
- jsnsnd 2y ago
  [dead]
shreddit 2y ago
I do WFH for about 9 months now and i’m not a big fan of it in general (for myself). I can’t go back in the office because i moved too far away, and would have to find a new job to work in an office (quite ironic, isn’t it?). There are some pros, like i eat a lot healthier, sleep a lot better, save a lot of money on gas. But two days without leaving the house is not uncommon, because I don’t have to and since i don’t know anybody around here and don’t do any team sports I haven’t made any friendships or contacts in any way. I really liked being in the office and have the ability to talk to people which share your interests (which is just my work currently)
- sarchertech 2y ago
  > share your interests (which is just my work currently) That’s the part I’d work on fixing. Friendships generally start based on shared interests, and you definitely need something in your life other than work.
  - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
    Over my life, I have made plenty of friends both at work and outside of work — but NONE of them had no interests outside of work. That's not to say that I've never had coworkers whose only interest was work. I just didn't become friends with them, because what is there to talk about? I greeted them and made basic small talk with them while we worked together, but that's not friendship. And that's not to say that my friends' interests have nothing to do with the work they do. But their interests in those areas go above and beyond what they are paid to do.
lentil_soup 2y ago
I solved that joining a coworking space. It changed my life, made a lot of friends since we see each other everyday. We have coffee/lunch chats which lead to friendships. The great thing about it is you get to choose the space so it can fit what you're looking for (quiet, programmer heavy, artsy, walking distance, with a cafeteria, next to the gym, etc), you also don't have the pressure of them being colleagues so your relationship can be about other things (sports, games, music, pottery, going out)
- paulcole 2y ago
  The WeWork I go to does a run club every week and while there are only 3 or so people (other than myself) who are consistent, it’s been good to have a new group of people in my life.
- cableshaft 2y ago
  Wish my area wasn't so much of a dead space for coworking spaces. There's a couple but they are both a half hour away. I almost might as well commute the rest of the way to my actual job at that point.
underlipton 2y ago
>For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. I think it's the opposite. The standard where people commute to the office, spend all day in the workplace, and commute home with barely enough time to tend to their needs is the failed social experiment, creating unprecedented levels of isolation and entire generations of people who can't form relations outside of work. I also don't think it's all that healthy for people's primary avenue for building friendships being in a venue where layoffs and transfers could disrupt that process suddenly and without any real recourse. One thing the marketing of industrialization (I want to say propaganda, but I know how people are...) was quite successful at was in erasing memory of the period just before, when piece-work at home (and farming, lots of farming) was the primary form productive labor took. There is quite a lot of documentation of industrial bosses complaining about such set-ups because they allowed workers to set their own hours and modulate their output to their needs (excuse me, "be lazy").
- XorNot 2y ago
  It's based on the faulty theory that you can make friends at work. Which isn't to say you can't but...it's work. It is first and foremost the lifeline holding up your entire financial existence. It is non-optional.
JackMorgan 2y ago
I completely disagree, and think work from home (which most of our ancestors did until the industrial revolution) is infinitely better for making and sustaining healthy friendships. There's not 90-120 minutes of commute time sitting alone in a car. There's not the very common occurrences of layoffs and promotions making you directly competing with each other. Instead you've got all that extra time to just spend time with your neighbors and make friendships. You can choose to work from a co-working space, coffeeshops, libraries, or just stay at home. But instead of getting home exhausted at 6-7pm needing to cook, clean, chores, etc, you can get that stuff done during your lunch break and then pop around to a friend's house by 5:05pm. It's so much better I can't imagine going back to an office where I'm sitting alone and sad in a cube all day trying to focus while people yammer on the phone right next to me.
- ajkjk 2y ago
  Aware that this is not how everyone feels but, IMO: you'd really have to mis-design your life to have a 90-120 minute commute. It's almost always possible to live near where you work, and it's a lot more important than most other comforts.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    On the German city I live on, 1h is the bare minimum comute time, to cross across three districts with public transports, and better not lose those connections. Closer to work, would be great, if I could afford the shinny prices of the rentals on the district the office is located on. Which would be the complete opposite from districts where other family members work on.
  - sarchertech 2y ago
    When you’re married with a working spouse, it becomes much harder. Then when you have kids you need to think about where they go to school and you might want to live close enough to grandparents that they can help out. These constraints make living close to work impossible for a huge chunk of people.
labster 2y ago
Isn’t factory and office work the social experiment? Just a couple centuries ago most work was done at home, or out on the farm, with only the owner/tenant and his family around. WFH is somewhat of a reversion to the historical mean.
onecommentman 2y ago
If we are going all “risky social experiment”, one could argue that almost all of humanity worked from home/neighborhood until passenger rail showed up in the mid 19th Century, and thus the actual anomalous human situation/experiment has been the last 150 years of commuting to work from home. A time of two World Wars and many major bloody military conflicts, breakdown of the family, weakening of community, growth and spread of colonialism, etc.. Perhaps Africa could have been spared the blessing of European colonialism if Nigel, Jacque, Fritz etc. had stayed at home making shoes. (Or maybe not.) Humans and associated social institutions evolved out of a WFH culture for hundreds of years, and perhaps those time-proven institutions would work better in 2024 if we returned to a WFH culture. Commuting culture may have been the “massive risky social experiment” of the last Century.
mikem170 2y ago
> For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. It works for folks who were either already inclined to "go out and do things" or those who already had established social groups. We will see how this pans out in a generation or two. I wonder if this would vary by country and culture? I wonder if there is a statistically noticeable difference in experience between places like the US and Northern Europe that seem to be more more work-focused compared to Southern European countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance Where is this reputation coming from? Every single engineer from Greece and Italy and some from France I met complained about long working hours being the norm and a cultural issue there. If he left the office before 4PM the boss would ask him "are you only having a half day today?" with the expectation being workday is at least till 6pm. I feel like this is some overly romanticized picture coming from Americans or rich northern europeans who think people in southern Europe are lazy and chilling all day instead of working their butts off, because that's what they saw in movies or on their holidays there. It's actually the opposite. Workers in work focused but rich countries with strong economies have better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies.
  - mejutoco 2y ago
    > better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. Spain is not a struggling economy. Source: an article on the Economist this week about Spain growing at a similar pace as the US this year.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      The economy of many poor African and Asian countries is also growing, that doesn't mean the economy is stellar and that WLB is amazing. Also, GDP growth is a shit measurements of WLB and general welfare of the working population. For example, if a lot of rich foreigners, tourists and retirees are buying properties and spending money on Airbnbs in your sunny country lifting up the GDP that has no impact on the welfare and WLB of white collar workers working in software or hardware engineering for example. Which is how Spain still has one of the highest youth unemployment rares in the EU. But yeah, Spain is a bit better, but Italy WLB is definitely nothing to write him about according to Italians who emigrated.
valval 2y ago
Being an extroverted libertarian, I sort of struggle with this topic. What are we supposed to do with people who can’t take care of their own mental health? Force them? Wait until they become a burden on the rest of us? It seems to me like there are no good options.
pavel_lishin 2y ago
> Having to have everything scheduled weeks in advance is utterly exhausting and incredibly anxiety inducing to me. If I didn't already have friends I could do spontaneous things with, I'm not sure how I'd be able to have any sort of social life at all. I certainly am not alone in this, even if I'm a minority. I feel similarly, but I don't understand how working at the office solves this problem. Are you saying that you mostly socialize by spontaneously going out after work with coworkers? Or that your you and your friends work in the same general vicinity, so you can text them near the end of the workday, and spontaneously go do something together?
- thrw42A8N 2y ago
  Not the OP, but yes. All my friends are former and current coworkers.
  - SansGuidon 2y ago
    Same here, I guess because I'm such a nerd, I have more affinities with like minded people that I often met at studies and at work. Other connections are fine but I'm not sharing the same dark humor and geek vibes with them. With WFH I still go to the office everyday and the people who I only see once a week seem too distant to me and we dont know each other very well.
octokatt 2y ago
Differing perspective but wanted to share: I find trying to socialize and make friends in an office situation to be incredibly stressful. Everyone in an office is there to primarily make money, and the politics implied make it hard for me to let my guard down and meaningfully connect with anyone. I greatly prefer socializing with people over hobbies -- everyone is at the gathering willingly to enjoy a hobby, which means I have something in common with everyone participating. Far superior, but then... I like having a groove and knowing when my next social gathering will be. I like routines. It sounds like you don't, which I can sympathize with, and I'm glad you have friends to spontaneously hang out with and hope you get to expand your circle and enjoy your life.
ravenstine 2y ago
> A lot of people will simply not do this, even if they know they should. This cannot be understated. When you consider the number of singles and young couples out there, it's pretty astounding how difficult it is to meet them in an organic manner. I totally agree with the person you were replying to, in the sense that people can get out there and just start meeting others, but it's still a tremendous investment of time and effort when the vast majority of other friendship-seeking individuals out there aren't investing anything close to that level of effort. I know because I've pretty much figured out how to just talk to people I meet in public, but it's still exhausting when your desire is to meet people who can be longer term friends or even romantic partners. What makes things even more difficult is the limited number of venues where it's feasible or appropriate for people to meet each other. I recently considered joining a church in order to expand my social circle (and yes, as well as open myself up to spiritual experiences) but, frankly, church crowds today resemble senior groups. I love talking to elderly folks, but it can be difficult to relate to them on a close friendship level. I find this to also be true of other ways to form social circles, to a somewhat lesser extent. Many meetup groups are full of the 50+ crowd, and surprisingly devoid of the 20s through 40s crowd. I think the older generations are just better at getting out there regularly; young people tend to show up to a single event (and even paid classes!) and never return. I can't entirely blame them, but it's also a chicken-or-the-egg problem. Everyone complains about being lonely, but then they don't get out there and return to the same venues so they can see the same people repeatedly. There's a lot of busy people, but I've met enough people who really aren't that busy that I think business is too often used as an excuse to not leave one's comfort zone. It's so easy to stay in the comfort of one's home that I think that's what many people resort to doing. Netflix, Reddit, Doordash, Amazon, Hinge, and Pornhub in combination are much too immediately satiating. The are many options such as: - Going to pubs and striking up conversations at the bar - Meetup groups - Volunteering - Going to places like museums and striking up conversations - Singles mixers - Bar trivia nights - Taking classes And far too few people do them consistently, if at all.
- shadowerm 2y ago
  I think many people have anxiety from a type of cognitive dissonance in this area. They don't want to make friends, they want someone else to want to be their friend so they know they are liked in the real world. That is what is missing, not the actual experience of friendship. Even if someone asked them to be their friend, many would say no because it would take time away from what is really important to them. Netflix, Reddit, Doordash, Amazon, Hinge, and Pornhub. How do I know this? Because it exactly describes myself.

by phil21 2y ago

dinosaurdynasty 2y ago

> Having to have everything scheduled weeks in advance I don't see how WFH makes this worse, in fact it probably makes it better (less time spent commuting, more ability to end the day early with a flexible employer, etc)

doubled112 2y ago
It worked this way for me in the neighbourhood. Maybe it was pandemic, maybe it was all that free time, but suddenly we all noticed each other. I had never even spoken to some of these people before. Suddenly we were all spending time in the same place instead of waving as we drove by on our way to work and taking kids to activities. Now I have friends. I don’t go to work then come home and stay inside. Plus working from home I have time to get involved in some of the kid’s activities and made more friends.
droidist2 2y ago
If you don't waste that time scrolling Instagram, Reddit, etc.
skeeter2020 2y ago
If you are or know someone who uses the time savings from not commuting to persue anything outside the house, you are in the vast minority.
- defrost 2y ago
  That seems like a local from your PoV thing. That overwhelming majority of people I know that have been doing WFH on and off for a decade work regular hours and spend the remainder (time otherwise commuting) socialising (outside the house), sports, gardening, building projects, etc. IRL AFK at least - the 24/7 gamers and shutin's likely have a different world view, but they appear to be in a minoity albeit one perhaps growing.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > That overwhelming majority of people I know You probably wont get to know a lot of people who don't go outside their house, so pretty biased sample there.
    - defrost 2y ago
      At least as biased as the sample of the commenter I replied to. Which is pretty much the subtext of my comment.
- jmathai 2y ago
  I don’t think they are in the majority, but it doesn’t have to be typical social activities like sports. I spend time WFH dropping and picking up my 3yo from pre school. In doing so I meet a number of parents from the community.
- cableshaft 2y ago
  Not necessarily during the week, but I have more energy and time for it on the weekends, thanks to not commuting. Do some cleaning during the week so there's not so much that needs to be done on the weekend.
chiefalchemist 2y ago
It can be both. For some WFH will be a big win. But for others a big loss. How big the big losse are will depend on the individual and their willingness to take action(s) to mitigate the loss.

doublepg23 2y ago

I don’t think I’d have agreed to volunteer at church as much as I do without WFH.

nobodyandproud 2y ago

If it weren’t for church services and semi-regular in-office work, my in-person contact would be just wife and kids. I believe the Japanese have a near analogous term for this: Hikikomori.

asp_hornet 2y ago
That is not what Hikikomori means. Hikikomori is a complete removal of oneself from society often including family and work.
- nobodyandproud 2y ago
  And “analogous” means “similar”, not identical. So what’s your point?
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Being a hikikomori also precludes immediate family members including parents, spouse, etc.; you often don't even leave your room let alone your house/apartment. Hikikomori is a level or two beyond what most westerners would think of when imagining an extremely introverted or reclusive person. The condition is more akin to PTSD stemming from severe mental/social trauma. For further context, the etymology of hikikomori is to "hiku" (literally "pull", contextually in this case to "pull back" from daily life) and "komoru" (to "shelter up", in this case most likely sheltering in your bedroom or mancave or similar safe space).
    - nobodyandproud 2y ago
      Well, no. Hikikomori isn’t an all or nothing state of being. What makes the news and what makes it to the Western media are the most extreme cases. The actual development to the extreme (or not) can be quite gradual.
ilbeeper 2y ago
Having regular contact with a wife and kids makes you far from being a Hikikomori.

throw646577 2y ago

ozim 2y ago

I WFH since pandemic. I have it good with current company and my home setup is a blast. But next year resolution is that I will be renting a desk in a coworking space. While I don’t have problem as I have enough fiends and family to hang out with. I believe that I leave business opportunities lying somewhere there on the table and if current contract ends I will be on much worse bargaining position than when I will having more business connections hopefully created by sharing co work space.

jsnsnd 2y ago
[dead]

shreddit 2y ago

I do WFH for about 9 months now and i’m not a big fan of it in general (for myself). I can’t go back in the office because i moved too far away, and would have to find a new job to work in an office (quite ironic, isn’t it?). There are some pros, like i eat a lot healthier, sleep a lot better, save a lot of money on gas. But two days without leaving the house is not uncommon, because I don’t have to and since i don’t know anybody around here and don’t do any team sports I haven’t made any friendships or contacts in any way. I really liked being in the office and have the ability to talk to people which share your interests (which is just my work currently)

sarchertech 2y ago
> share your interests (which is just my work currently) That’s the part I’d work on fixing. Friendships generally start based on shared interests, and you definitely need something in your life other than work.
- RoyalHenOil 2y ago
  Over my life, I have made plenty of friends both at work and outside of work — but NONE of them had no interests outside of work. That's not to say that I've never had coworkers whose only interest was work. I just didn't become friends with them, because what is there to talk about? I greeted them and made basic small talk with them while we worked together, but that's not friendship. And that's not to say that my friends' interests have nothing to do with the work they do. But their interests in those areas go above and beyond what they are paid to do.

lentil_soup 2y ago

I solved that joining a coworking space. It changed my life, made a lot of friends since we see each other everyday. We have coffee/lunch chats which lead to friendships. The great thing about it is you get to choose the space so it can fit what you're looking for (quiet, programmer heavy, artsy, walking distance, with a cafeteria, next to the gym, etc), you also don't have the pressure of them being colleagues so your relationship can be about other things (sports, games, music, pottery, going out)

paulcole 2y ago
The WeWork I go to does a run club every week and while there are only 3 or so people (other than myself) who are consistent, it’s been good to have a new group of people in my life.
cableshaft 2y ago
Wish my area wasn't so much of a dead space for coworking spaces. There's a couple but they are both a half hour away. I almost might as well commute the rest of the way to my actual job at that point.

underlipton 2y ago

>For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. I think it's the opposite. The standard where people commute to the office, spend all day in the workplace, and commute home with barely enough time to tend to their needs is the failed social experiment, creating unprecedented levels of isolation and entire generations of people who can't form relations outside of work. I also don't think it's all that healthy for people's primary avenue for building friendships being in a venue where layoffs and transfers could disrupt that process suddenly and without any real recourse. One thing the marketing of industrialization (I want to say propaganda, but I know how people are...) was quite successful at was in erasing memory of the period just before, when piece-work at home (and farming, lots of farming) was the primary form productive labor took. There is quite a lot of documentation of industrial bosses complaining about such set-ups because they allowed workers to set their own hours and modulate their output to their needs (excuse me, "be lazy").

XorNot 2y ago
It's based on the faulty theory that you can make friends at work. Which isn't to say you can't but...it's work. It is first and foremost the lifeline holding up your entire financial existence. It is non-optional.

JackMorgan 2y ago

I completely disagree, and think work from home (which most of our ancestors did until the industrial revolution) is infinitely better for making and sustaining healthy friendships. There's not 90-120 minutes of commute time sitting alone in a car. There's not the very common occurrences of layoffs and promotions making you directly competing with each other. Instead you've got all that extra time to just spend time with your neighbors and make friendships. You can choose to work from a co-working space, coffeeshops, libraries, or just stay at home. But instead of getting home exhausted at 6-7pm needing to cook, clean, chores, etc, you can get that stuff done during your lunch break and then pop around to a friend's house by 5:05pm. It's so much better I can't imagine going back to an office where I'm sitting alone and sad in a cube all day trying to focus while people yammer on the phone right next to me.

ajkjk 2y ago
Aware that this is not how everyone feels but, IMO: you'd really have to mis-design your life to have a 90-120 minute commute. It's almost always possible to live near where you work, and it's a lot more important than most other comforts.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  On the German city I live on, 1h is the bare minimum comute time, to cross across three districts with public transports, and better not lose those connections. Closer to work, would be great, if I could afford the shinny prices of the rentals on the district the office is located on. Which would be the complete opposite from districts where other family members work on.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  When you’re married with a working spouse, it becomes much harder. Then when you have kids you need to think about where they go to school and you might want to live close enough to grandparents that they can help out. These constraints make living close to work impossible for a huge chunk of people.

labster 2y ago

Isn’t factory and office work the social experiment? Just a couple centuries ago most work was done at home, or out on the farm, with only the owner/tenant and his family around. WFH is somewhat of a reversion to the historical mean.

onecommentman 2y ago

If we are going all “risky social experiment”, one could argue that almost all of humanity worked from home/neighborhood until passenger rail showed up in the mid 19th Century, and thus the actual anomalous human situation/experiment has been the last 150 years of commuting to work from home. A time of two World Wars and many major bloody military conflicts, breakdown of the family, weakening of community, growth and spread of colonialism, etc.. Perhaps Africa could have been spared the blessing of European colonialism if Nigel, Jacque, Fritz etc. had stayed at home making shoes. (Or maybe not.) Humans and associated social institutions evolved out of a WFH culture for hundreds of years, and perhaps those time-proven institutions would work better in 2024 if we returned to a WFH culture. Commuting culture may have been the “massive risky social experiment” of the last Century.

mikem170 2y ago

> For this reason I think WFH is a massively more risky social experiment than most realize. It works for folks who were either already inclined to "go out and do things" or those who already had established social groups. We will see how this pans out in a generation or two. I wonder if this would vary by country and culture? I wonder if there is a statistically noticeable difference in experience between places like the US and Northern Europe that seem to be more more work-focused compared to Southern European countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>countries like Spain and Italy which have a reputation for having a better work/life balance Where is this reputation coming from? Every single engineer from Greece and Italy and some from France I met complained about long working hours being the norm and a cultural issue there. If he left the office before 4PM the boss would ask him "are you only having a half day today?" with the expectation being workday is at least till 6pm. I feel like this is some overly romanticized picture coming from Americans or rich northern europeans who think people in southern Europe are lazy and chilling all day instead of working their butts off, because that's what they saw in movies or on their holidays there. It's actually the opposite. Workers in work focused but rich countries with strong economies have better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies.
- mejutoco 2y ago
  > better WLB than workers in laid back countries but with struggling/stagnating economies. Spain is not a struggling economy. Source: an article on the Economist this week about Spain growing at a similar pace as the US this year.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    The economy of many poor African and Asian countries is also growing, that doesn't mean the economy is stellar and that WLB is amazing. Also, GDP growth is a shit measurements of WLB and general welfare of the working population. For example, if a lot of rich foreigners, tourists and retirees are buying properties and spending money on Airbnbs in your sunny country lifting up the GDP that has no impact on the welfare and WLB of white collar workers working in software or hardware engineering for example. Which is how Spain still has one of the highest youth unemployment rares in the EU. But yeah, Spain is a bit better, but Italy WLB is definitely nothing to write him about according to Italians who emigrated.

valval 2y ago

Being an extroverted libertarian, I sort of struggle with this topic. What are we supposed to do with people who can’t take care of their own mental health? Force them? Wait until they become a burden on the rest of us? It seems to me like there are no good options.

pavel_lishin 2y ago

> Having to have everything scheduled weeks in advance is utterly exhausting and incredibly anxiety inducing to me. If I didn't already have friends I could do spontaneous things with, I'm not sure how I'd be able to have any sort of social life at all. I certainly am not alone in this, even if I'm a minority. I feel similarly, but I don't understand how working at the office solves this problem. Are you saying that you mostly socialize by spontaneously going out after work with coworkers? Or that your you and your friends work in the same general vicinity, so you can text them near the end of the workday, and spontaneously go do something together?

thrw42A8N 2y ago
Not the OP, but yes. All my friends are former and current coworkers.
- SansGuidon 2y ago
  Same here, I guess because I'm such a nerd, I have more affinities with like minded people that I often met at studies and at work. Other connections are fine but I'm not sharing the same dark humor and geek vibes with them. With WFH I still go to the office everyday and the people who I only see once a week seem too distant to me and we dont know each other very well.

octokatt 2y ago

Differing perspective but wanted to share: I find trying to socialize and make friends in an office situation to be incredibly stressful. Everyone in an office is there to primarily make money, and the politics implied make it hard for me to let my guard down and meaningfully connect with anyone. I greatly prefer socializing with people over hobbies -- everyone is at the gathering willingly to enjoy a hobby, which means I have something in common with everyone participating. Far superior, but then... I like having a groove and knowing when my next social gathering will be. I like routines. It sounds like you don't, which I can sympathize with, and I'm glad you have friends to spontaneously hang out with and hope you get to expand your circle and enjoy your life.

ravenstine 2y ago

> A lot of people will simply not do this, even if they know they should. This cannot be understated. When you consider the number of singles and young couples out there, it's pretty astounding how difficult it is to meet them in an organic manner. I totally agree with the person you were replying to, in the sense that people can get out there and just start meeting others, but it's still a tremendous investment of time and effort when the vast majority of other friendship-seeking individuals out there aren't investing anything close to that level of effort. I know because I've pretty much figured out how to just talk to people I meet in public, but it's still exhausting when your desire is to meet people who can be longer term friends or even romantic partners. What makes things even more difficult is the limited number of venues where it's feasible or appropriate for people to meet each other. I recently considered joining a church in order to expand my social circle (and yes, as well as open myself up to spiritual experiences) but, frankly, church crowds today resemble senior groups. I love talking to elderly folks, but it can be difficult to relate to them on a close friendship level. I find this to also be true of other ways to form social circles, to a somewhat lesser extent. Many meetup groups are full of the 50+ crowd, and surprisingly devoid of the 20s through 40s crowd. I think the older generations are just better at getting out there regularly; young people tend to show up to a single event (and even paid classes!) and never return. I can't entirely blame them, but it's also a chicken-or-the-egg problem. Everyone complains about being lonely, but then they don't get out there and return to the same venues so they can see the same people repeatedly. There's a lot of busy people, but I've met enough people who really aren't that busy that I think business is too often used as an excuse to not leave one's comfort zone. It's so easy to stay in the comfort of one's home that I think that's what many people resort to doing. Netflix, Reddit, Doordash, Amazon, Hinge, and Pornhub in combination are much too immediately satiating. The are many options such as: - Going to pubs and striking up conversations at the bar - Meetup groups - Volunteering - Going to places like museums and striking up conversations - Singles mixers - Bar trivia nights - Taking classes And far too few people do them consistently, if at all.

shadowerm 2y ago
I think many people have anxiety from a type of cognitive dissonance in this area. They don't want to make friends, they want someone else to want to be their friend so they know they are liked in the real world. That is what is missing, not the actual experience of friendship. Even if someone asked them to be their friend, many would say no because it would take time away from what is really important to them. Netflix, Reddit, Doordash, Amazon, Hinge, and Pornhub. How do I know this? Because it exactly describes myself.