5 ms·

> Some crime victims would rather have their perpetrators “rot in hell” than see them have these kinds of privileges, said Randall Liberty, commissioner of the

> Some crime victims would rather have their perpetrators “rot in hell” than see them have these kinds of privileges, said Randall Liberty, commissioner of the Maine Department of Corrections, and victims are notified, and their concerns considered, when offenders line up remote jobs. I can understand those very human feelings. But the state justice system should not be retributive, no matter how much victims want it to be. It should focus on protection (keeping criminals off the streets and the rest of us safe), deterrence, rehabilitation, and restitution. And its constraints should be fairness, transparency, and speed/efficiency.

baggy_trough 2y ago
Retribution contributes to deterrence, as well as benefiting the society as a whole by promoting justice.
- soperj 2y ago
  That's why you have no recidivism in the US?
- cultofmetatron 2y ago
  > Retribution contributes to deterrence, the actual data on this refutes that. rehabilitation focused countries overhelmingly have less recidivism. increasing access and quality of education, early intervention like head start, wicc and other "wellfare" programs as well as free healthcare are much more likely to reduce crime rates by a significant amount.
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      So you think other people should bother to listen to your gut feelings instead.
      - baggy_trough 2y ago
        Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences.
        kaibee 2y ago
        > Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences. Yea its hard figure out the truth when you just dismiss all the evidence that goes against your priors.
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        Ahh, so anyone who knows what they are talking about disagrees with you and you think that’s a problem with their work.
        baggy_trough 2y ago
        You don't think it's a problem that 99% of social study researchers are left wing?
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        100% of astronauts believe the world is a sphere.
        baggy_trough 2y ago
        Thank you for making my point.
    - exe34 2y ago
      are you claiming that the Scandinavians are lying about their rates of recidivism? or that you believe that recidivism is indeed lower there than in the US, but it's due to something else than their focus on rehabilitation over punishment? I'm trying to figure out if you're arguing in good faith or if it would not be worth digging up the numbers for you.
      - zdragnar 2y ago
        It is fair to consider the study suspect in that Scandinavian societies as a whole may contribute to decreased recidivism. Understanding the role that the penal system plays will have different outcomes in other countries with different social makeups and different values (broadly speaking) should not be discounted. That's not to say that rehabilitation is impossible. I am inclined to disagree with the utter disregard GP had for the study, but I also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today.
        exe34 2y ago
        > also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today. amen to that. profit-making prisons are a pretty clever way around slavery laws.
        vidarh 2y ago
        Norway had a brutal, US inspired prison system until the 1960s. Norway's most infamous prison (now closed) was explicitly built on plans copying a US prison design. Norway's current focus on reducing reoffending was a decades long path of prison reform and gradually figuring out what works.
        mckn1ght 2y ago
        This is obvious to me. A different value system is required to approach justice differently. Sadly this indicates that it is not just our justice system that needs fixing, but instead our entire societal culture. It’s no wonder we have such outlying violence statistics, we are just more bloodthirsty. And this is coming from someone who believes that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Yes, guns make it easier, but you have to want to kill first, and we simply have more of that per capita. Likewise, maybe the same society that views justice as retributive, is one that will fight tooth and nail to keep access to guns unchanged even in the face of elementary school massacres and toddlers accidentally discharging guns left lying around, as well as look the other way from abysmal mental health crises leading to dire situations that lead to a variety of violence and trauma. So yes, I agree that we won’t just see it replicated in American society anytime soon.
    - yodon 2y ago
      >My estimation of the credibility of the so-called "actual data" is minimal to nonexistent. It sounds like ideologically motivated conclusions to push a left wing social agenda. So your ideology guarantees your assumptions are always correct but the other guy's ideology guarantees his assumptions are always "ideologically motivated"?
- RiverCrochet 2y ago
  Only if a leading entity emerges and keeps power, but history doesn't show that a single entity can keep power for very long in the grand timeline of humanity. And that fact--constant threat/change of power--makes the following difficult: - Having an idea of societal benefit or justice that does not align with a person's feelings (leader of the ruling party) - Owning land or real property with conveniences like electricity or water - your territory is always under threat and unless you have large numbers of allies you will eventually get swallowed or forced to obey directives of the ruling party. Furthermore: - Having large numbers of allies, or being part of or strongly affiliated with the ruling entity just puts you in the same situation as ruling entity which is causing the first 2 things so it can survive.
- from-nibly 2y ago
  Retribution is not justice. It does not promote it.
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    Punishment for misdeeds is a component of justice.
Tronno 2y ago
Satisfying the desire for retribution has to be one of the system's goals, otherwise people would take matters into their own hands. However, you are correct that it shouldn't be the main goal, or even a major one.
- vidarh 2y ago
  Many things make people want to take justice into their hands without us yielding to those who are prepared to commit crimes to punish others.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- from-nibly 2y ago
  We have to push the "do not push button" otherwise other people might want to push it.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> But the state justice system should not be retributive, no matter how much victims want it to be. Perhaps you're looking for a form of government other than democracy?
unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
[flagged]
- pcthrowaway 2y ago
  A crime, once committed, has been committed. End of story. Nothing can change the past. Seeking to punish isn't justice, it's revenge. It doesn't restore people or society, it feeds a cycle of violence. Justice should be restorative.
  - unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
    So, since you cannot restore the victim, and past is past, you'll lecture victims about the cycle of violence and tell them to "just get over it"? And call it "justice"?
    - pcthrowaway 2y ago
      I didn't say that at all, and if you do even the most cursory reading of restorative justice you'd know it's pretty much the opposite of "telling victims to 'just get over it'".
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  > "We failed to protect you, but we're working hard to protect your perpetrator?" No one suggested that, or anything close to it. Proportionality is a consideration as well. We don't want to hand out the death penalty just because the victim demands it!
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  "We failed you but we're taking steps to avoid this happening again in the future" is like textbook institutional apology.
  - unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
    Spoken like someone who has never been the victim of a serious crime.
sonofhans 2y ago
It blows my mind to see you downvoted for this most simple and straightforward ethical statement — justice and retribution are not the same, and the state should be in the business of justice. From Plato to the Tao, Christianity and Buddhism, Reverend King and Gandhi, most careful thinkers about ethics, philosophy, and government over thousands of years have come to the same conclusion. The purposes of punishment are to remove a dangerous person from circulation, to make amends to victims, and to deter other potential offenders. Revenge does not enter into it. Replies here are talking about how good revenge feels, and threatening mob violence if revenge isn’t granted, but consider that those responses are in a context where there is little justice already. We know in our society that injustice is not often punished, and that revenge (e.g., shooting a healthcare CEO) feels great. That is further proof of the importance of justice, not an argument for retribution.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
The official US Federal Government position (and sentencing law) is that promoting correction and rehabilitation are prohibited from sentencing considerations when it comes to imprisonment (and any imprisonment sentence that includes such considerations will be challenged and reversed for resentencing). A prison sentence is a punishment, not a means for correction and/or rehabilitation: 18 U.S. Code § 3582 - Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment.... (a)Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Term of Imprisonment.— The court, in determining whether to impose a term of imprisonment, and, if a term of imprisonment is to be imposed, in determining the length of the term, shall consider the factors set forth in section 3553(a) to the extent that they are applicable, recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation
- vidarh 2y ago
  Yet another reason why, if I somehow magically found myself on a US jury (given I'm not American, that's not an actual concern), would find it morally impossible to vote to convict anyone.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  That's about the term, not the conditions and resulting impact on the prisoner. Of course, people seem to prefer inhumane, brutal conditions, regardless of the impact.

baggy_trough 2y ago

Retribution contributes to deterrence, as well as benefiting the society as a whole by promoting justice.

soperj 2y ago
That's why you have no recidivism in the US?
cultofmetatron 2y ago
> Retribution contributes to deterrence, the actual data on this refutes that. rehabilitation focused countries overhelmingly have less recidivism. increasing access and quality of education, early intervention like head start, wicc and other "wellfare" programs as well as free healthcare are much more likely to reduce crime rates by a significant amount.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    So you think other people should bother to listen to your gut feelings instead.
    - baggy_trough 2y ago
      Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences.
      - kaibee 2y ago
        > Unfortunately we don't have much more to go on, given an academia that is overwhelmingly leftist, especially in the social sciences. Yea its hard figure out the truth when you just dismiss all the evidence that goes against your priors.
      - lazyasciiart 2y ago
        Ahh, so anyone who knows what they are talking about disagrees with you and you think that’s a problem with their work.
        baggy_trough 2y ago
        You don't think it's a problem that 99% of social study researchers are left wing?
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        100% of astronauts believe the world is a sphere.
        baggy_trough 2y ago
        Thank you for making my point.
  - exe34 2y ago
    are you claiming that the Scandinavians are lying about their rates of recidivism? or that you believe that recidivism is indeed lower there than in the US, but it's due to something else than their focus on rehabilitation over punishment? I'm trying to figure out if you're arguing in good faith or if it would not be worth digging up the numbers for you.
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      It is fair to consider the study suspect in that Scandinavian societies as a whole may contribute to decreased recidivism. Understanding the role that the penal system plays will have different outcomes in other countries with different social makeups and different values (broadly speaking) should not be discounted. That's not to say that rehabilitation is impossible. I am inclined to disagree with the utter disregard GP had for the study, but I also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today.
      - exe34 2y ago
        > also do not believe it can be directly replicated in American society as it stands today. amen to that. profit-making prisons are a pretty clever way around slavery laws.
      - vidarh 2y ago
        Norway had a brutal, US inspired prison system until the 1960s. Norway's most infamous prison (now closed) was explicitly built on plans copying a US prison design. Norway's current focus on reducing reoffending was a decades long path of prison reform and gradually figuring out what works.
      - mckn1ght 2y ago
        This is obvious to me. A different value system is required to approach justice differently. Sadly this indicates that it is not just our justice system that needs fixing, but instead our entire societal culture. It’s no wonder we have such outlying violence statistics, we are just more bloodthirsty. And this is coming from someone who believes that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Yes, guns make it easier, but you have to want to kill first, and we simply have more of that per capita. Likewise, maybe the same society that views justice as retributive, is one that will fight tooth and nail to keep access to guns unchanged even in the face of elementary school massacres and toddlers accidentally discharging guns left lying around, as well as look the other way from abysmal mental health crises leading to dire situations that lead to a variety of violence and trauma. So yes, I agree that we won’t just see it replicated in American society anytime soon.
  - yodon 2y ago
    >My estimation of the credibility of the so-called "actual data" is minimal to nonexistent. It sounds like ideologically motivated conclusions to push a left wing social agenda. So your ideology guarantees your assumptions are always correct but the other guy's ideology guarantees his assumptions are always "ideologically motivated"?
RiverCrochet 2y ago
Only if a leading entity emerges and keeps power, but history doesn't show that a single entity can keep power for very long in the grand timeline of humanity. And that fact--constant threat/change of power--makes the following difficult: - Having an idea of societal benefit or justice that does not align with a person's feelings (leader of the ruling party) - Owning land or real property with conveniences like electricity or water - your territory is always under threat and unless you have large numbers of allies you will eventually get swallowed or forced to obey directives of the ruling party. Furthermore: - Having large numbers of allies, or being part of or strongly affiliated with the ruling entity just puts you in the same situation as ruling entity which is causing the first 2 things so it can survive.
from-nibly 2y ago
Retribution is not justice. It does not promote it.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  Punishment for misdeeds is a component of justice.

Tronno 2y ago

Satisfying the desire for retribution has to be one of the system's goals, otherwise people would take matters into their own hands. However, you are correct that it shouldn't be the main goal, or even a major one.

vidarh 2y ago
Many things make people want to take justice into their hands without us yielding to those who are prepared to commit crimes to punish others.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
from-nibly 2y ago
We have to push the "do not push button" otherwise other people might want to push it.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> But the state justice system should not be retributive, no matter how much victims want it to be. Perhaps you're looking for a form of government other than democracy?

unyttigfjelltol 2y ago

[flagged]

pcthrowaway 2y ago
A crime, once committed, has been committed. End of story. Nothing can change the past. Seeking to punish isn't justice, it's revenge. It doesn't restore people or society, it feeds a cycle of violence. Justice should be restorative.
- unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
  So, since you cannot restore the victim, and past is past, you'll lecture victims about the cycle of violence and tell them to "just get over it"? And call it "justice"?
  - pcthrowaway 2y ago
    I didn't say that at all, and if you do even the most cursory reading of restorative justice you'd know it's pretty much the opposite of "telling victims to 'just get over it'".
dghlsakjg 2y ago
> "We failed to protect you, but we're working hard to protect your perpetrator?" No one suggested that, or anything close to it. Proportionality is a consideration as well. We don't want to hand out the death penalty just because the victim demands it!
BobaFloutist 2y ago
"We failed you but we're taking steps to avoid this happening again in the future" is like textbook institutional apology.
- unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
  Spoken like someone who has never been the victim of a serious crime.

sonofhans 2y ago

It blows my mind to see you downvoted for this most simple and straightforward ethical statement — justice and retribution are not the same, and the state should be in the business of justice. From Plato to the Tao, Christianity and Buddhism, Reverend King and Gandhi, most careful thinkers about ethics, philosophy, and government over thousands of years have come to the same conclusion. The purposes of punishment are to remove a dangerous person from circulation, to make amends to victims, and to deter other potential offenders. Revenge does not enter into it. Replies here are talking about how good revenge feels, and threatening mob violence if revenge isn’t granted, but consider that those responses are in a context where there is little justice already. We know in our society that injustice is not often punished, and that revenge (e.g., shooting a healthcare CEO) feels great. That is further proof of the importance of justice, not an argument for retribution.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

The official US Federal Government position (and sentencing law) is that promoting correction and rehabilitation are prohibited from sentencing considerations when it comes to imprisonment (and any imprisonment sentence that includes such considerations will be challenged and reversed for resentencing). A prison sentence is a punishment, not a means for correction and/or rehabilitation: 18 U.S. Code § 3582 - Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment.... (a)Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Term of Imprisonment.— The court, in determining whether to impose a term of imprisonment, and, if a term of imprisonment is to be imposed, in determining the length of the term, shall consider the factors set forth in section 3553(a) to the extent that they are applicable, recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation

vidarh 2y ago
Yet another reason why, if I somehow magically found myself on a US jury (given I'm not American, that's not an actual concern), would find it morally impossible to vote to convict anyone.
maxerickson 2y ago
That's about the term, not the conditions and resulting impact on the prisoner. Of course, people seem to prefer inhumane, brutal conditions, regardless of the impact.