3 ms·

The majority of the air travel time is spent in the airport, doing "administrative" things. If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things li

by chii 2y ago

The majority of the air travel time is spent in the airport, doing "administrative" things. If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things like security, check-in, like how a train would be), then trains are absolutely uncompetitive on speed. The only advantage of a train would be that you could more easily sleep in one - so an overnight trip is less tiring, and you save on cost of an extra night of hotel stay.

Scarblac 2y ago
And there's more to see out of the window, and you can take breaks (leave the train for a couple of hours to explore a city along the way, then continue on the next). And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions. But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.
- nh2 2y ago
  On most train tickets you cannot hop off for a couple hours. That would require a new ticket.
  - GJim 2y ago
    [citation needed] This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so. (Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
    - nh2 2y ago
      > [citation needed] All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times. https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - switch007 2y ago
      Advances are also extremely common in/to/from England and sales are on the up. The government is working hard to replace off peak singles with advances. Flexible tickets are becoming unaffordable for certain journeys such as those on the ECML with LNER (aka The Government)
- xethos 2y ago
  Respectfully, I'm incredulous that you think trains need dramatically more infrastructure than aircraft. For that matter, I'd peg aircraft infrastructure as worse - the asphalt, the noise, the culling of all vegetation save scrubgrass, and all spread out over a massive area. At least a commuter train station can be (partially) covered and (IIRC from Germany) multi-layered Notably, I say noise, and I suspect reasonable people will point out how not-quiet trains can be. I think the only argument I need to make for how much quieter they are than aircraft is pointing out on a map where the (commuter) train yards are (routinely city-center) vs airfields (typically the outskirts, far from where people live) Aircraft require less infrastructure between points, but when you get there a rail yard doesn't require multi-kilometer runways (plural) and taxiways. PS - My god, I hadn't realized how pro-train / anti-aircraft I was until I started on; even having previously worked in aviation, suggesting it was a damn good idea to leave. Aircraft may be an incredible feat of human engineering, but like the personal automobile, we as a society have taken it too far and used them in places that could do with fewer of them, IMO.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    Well-maintained, electric (obviously) commuter trains aren't that noisy. It's less annoying than a moderately busy road. In London complaints about noise from stations was more common at some point than from the train itself. ("The train now approaching platform 2 is the midnight forty-five South West Trains service to London Waterloo calling at London Waterloo only. This train is formed of eight carriages. If you see anything suspicious, call the British Transport Police on 1984. See it, say it, suck on it.")
  - Scarblac 2y ago
    The stations arent the hard part, it's the rails. Cities were built around the train tracks. Say we wanted to double them all for more capacity, that means tearing down a lot of expensive real estate to make room.
rf15 2y ago
for frequent flyers, radiation exposure is also a factor.
- hyhconito 2y ago
  This is usually a misunderstanding of risk. I think the last stats I read were that per 18,000,000 miles of air travel for 200 people, you'd expect 1 extra person to end up with cancer. Over a baseline risk of 25% of people getting cancer, that's negligible.
athrowaway3z 2y ago
Doesn't this kind of argument work the other way around as well? If we get rid of other considerations, and train travel could be more streamlined (strap a jet engine on a train, no need to gain altitude), then airplanes are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
- jules 2y ago
  There is a difference between changing administrative things versus fighting physics.
- chii 2y ago
  > strap a jet engine on a train well, hyperloop tried and failed. It's just not practical.
marcosscriven 2y ago
This was always the upsetting thing about Eurostar/Eurotunnel between UK and France. In my naive teens I dreamt of how wonderful it would be if we joined Shengen and could literally just hop on the train to Paris. But sadly we went the other way and completely left - and now it’s as bad or worse than any airport.
- nh2 2y ago
  While the Eurostar pre-boarding times are not great, they are much better that an airport. I usually arrive 40 minutes before the train starts moving, including large luggage (30 minutes before is the limit at which the ticket gates close). There is no waiting for you luggage on arrival because you always have it in your hand. This is also possible because the distance between check-in gates and the train is only around 50 meters in all 3 stops (London, Brussels, Paris). On those 50 meters you have the luggage scanners, passport control, and the waiting hall. Compare that to kilometers of walking at Heathrow Airport.
prawn 2y ago
I also find all the interruptions while you're on the plane itself tedious. Waiting for all the luggage wrangling, the safety briefing, the welcome from the crew, the message from the captain, the announcement about food or drinks, another message from the captain, various seatbelt-related announcements, something about duty free, and on and on. And they're all in that verbose style, like ChatGPT. Makes using any in-flight entertainment miserable.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  It is tedious but it doesn't cause delay. The briefing happens while the airplane is taxying. The message from the captain I'm flight. The food or drinks is a side business (also happening on some trains with wagonlit), same as with the duty free crap. I agree I'd like more peace but this stuff isn't making it slower.
snapplebobapple 2y ago
that experience still exists flying private. You submit a passport photo the day before for prechecking then get a quick verify at the terminal. Its max 45 minutes from arrival to walking to plane and going. There is no reason we couldnt be doing that for all flights combined with marginally better pilot security. We arent because government has been (n the path of stupid for so long that it cant seem to change

by chii 2y ago

Scarblac 2y ago

And there's more to see out of the window, and you can take breaks (leave the train for a couple of hours to explore a city along the way, then continue on the next). And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions. But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.

nh2 2y ago
On most train tickets you cannot hop off for a couple hours. That would require a new ticket.
- GJim 2y ago
  [citation needed] This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so. (Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
  - nh2 2y ago
    > [citation needed] All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times. https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - switch007 2y ago
    Advances are also extremely common in/to/from England and sales are on the up. The government is working hard to replace off peak singles with advances. Flexible tickets are becoming unaffordable for certain journeys such as those on the ECML with LNER (aka The Government)
xethos 2y ago
Respectfully, I'm incredulous that you think trains need dramatically more infrastructure than aircraft. For that matter, I'd peg aircraft infrastructure as worse - the asphalt, the noise, the culling of all vegetation save scrubgrass, and all spread out over a massive area. At least a commuter train station can be (partially) covered and (IIRC from Germany) multi-layered Notably, I say noise, and I suspect reasonable people will point out how not-quiet trains can be. I think the only argument I need to make for how much quieter they are than aircraft is pointing out on a map where the (commuter) train yards are (routinely city-center) vs airfields (typically the outskirts, far from where people live) Aircraft require less infrastructure between points, but when you get there a rail yard doesn't require multi-kilometer runways (plural) and taxiways. PS - My god, I hadn't realized how pro-train / anti-aircraft I was until I started on; even having previously worked in aviation, suggesting it was a damn good idea to leave. Aircraft may be an incredible feat of human engineering, but like the personal automobile, we as a society have taken it too far and used them in places that could do with fewer of them, IMO.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  Well-maintained, electric (obviously) commuter trains aren't that noisy. It's less annoying than a moderately busy road. In London complaints about noise from stations was more common at some point than from the train itself. ("The train now approaching platform 2 is the midnight forty-five South West Trains service to London Waterloo calling at London Waterloo only. This train is formed of eight carriages. If you see anything suspicious, call the British Transport Police on 1984. See it, say it, suck on it.")
- Scarblac 2y ago
  The stations arent the hard part, it's the rails. Cities were built around the train tracks. Say we wanted to double them all for more capacity, that means tearing down a lot of expensive real estate to make room.

rf15 2y ago

for frequent flyers, radiation exposure is also a factor.

hyhconito 2y ago
This is usually a misunderstanding of risk. I think the last stats I read were that per 18,000,000 miles of air travel for 200 people, you'd expect 1 extra person to end up with cancer. Over a baseline risk of 25% of people getting cancer, that's negligible.

athrowaway3z 2y ago

Doesn't this kind of argument work the other way around as well? If we get rid of other considerations, and train travel could be more streamlined (strap a jet engine on a train, no need to gain altitude), then airplanes are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.

jules 2y ago
There is a difference between changing administrative things versus fighting physics.
chii 2y ago
> strap a jet engine on a train well, hyperloop tried and failed. It's just not practical.

marcosscriven 2y ago

This was always the upsetting thing about Eurostar/Eurotunnel between UK and France. In my naive teens I dreamt of how wonderful it would be if we joined Shengen and could literally just hop on the train to Paris. But sadly we went the other way and completely left - and now it’s as bad or worse than any airport.

nh2 2y ago
While the Eurostar pre-boarding times are not great, they are much better that an airport. I usually arrive 40 minutes before the train starts moving, including large luggage (30 minutes before is the limit at which the ticket gates close). There is no waiting for you luggage on arrival because you always have it in your hand. This is also possible because the distance between check-in gates and the train is only around 50 meters in all 3 stops (London, Brussels, Paris). On those 50 meters you have the luggage scanners, passport control, and the waiting hall. Compare that to kilometers of walking at Heathrow Airport.

prawn 2y ago

I also find all the interruptions while you're on the plane itself tedious. Waiting for all the luggage wrangling, the safety briefing, the welcome from the crew, the message from the captain, the announcement about food or drinks, another message from the captain, various seatbelt-related announcements, something about duty free, and on and on. And they're all in that verbose style, like ChatGPT. Makes using any in-flight entertainment miserable.

wkat4242 2y ago
It is tedious but it doesn't cause delay. The briefing happens while the airplane is taxying. The message from the captain I'm flight. The food or drinks is a side business (also happening on some trains with wagonlit), same as with the duty free crap. I agree I'd like more peace but this stuff isn't making it slower.

snapplebobapple 2y ago

that experience still exists flying private. You submit a passport photo the day before for prechecking then get a quick verify at the terminal. Its max 45 minutes from arrival to walking to plane and going. There is no reason we couldnt be doing that for all flights combined with marginally better pilot security. We arent because government has been (n the path of stupid for so long that it cant seem to change