5 ms·

some colleague some time ago argued that one can write code without much/any spaces, because, "you can see, it's colored differently".. sounding like, "i am bre

some colleague some time ago argued that one can write code without much/any spaces, because, "you can see, it's colored differently".. sounding like, "i am breathing". All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them, and only walk their walk, not yours. Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.. i observed it. Then the trend to pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise, because "it would be IDeditor-friendly" (??) . Form over function, yes.. And another observation from many experiences.. any kind of generated code alienates its users, i.e. programmers. Yet to see how current LLM-ical trend scores in this.. As of last interview, "we need software curators, not programmers" have fun!

pjc50 2y ago
> pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise Yeah, this is going to be extremely controversial: your so-called untyped language actually has types in, and they're important, but only the program can see them at runtime because you've not written them down anywhere. The real solution to "repeating myself writing down types" is Hindley-Milner inference, which dates back to 1958, and more languages should use it!
- rootnod3 2y ago
  Yeah, but even there, if one were to use no LSP or other completions, Hindley Milner doesn't help while editing as you won't see the inferred types. It comes down back to good naming and the compiler at the end.
- zahlman 2y ago
  IMX, people who use the term "untyped language" generally: a) use languages with Hindley-Milner inference; b) don't consider things that can "only the program can see at runtime" to qualify as "types".
  - pjc50 2y ago
    If your language lets you add a number to a string or divide a dictionary by a boolean, that's .. exciting, but also the sort of thing that produces https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
    - zahlman 2y ago
      True, but also irrelevant. Python is strongly, but dynamically typed. You cannot do the things you describe in Python, but it's still considered "untyped" in that framework because it performs its type checks at runtime.
    - teddyh 2y ago
      Those “Wat”s are mostly the result ot weak typing, (as opposed to strong typing) which is an entirely orthogonal concept to static/dynamic typing. Don’t confuse the two concepts. Older languages which first started to experiment with dynamic typing also tended to use weak typing. But as things progressed, weak typing was considered less good in serious languages, while it was still expected in “scripting” languages, and Javascript was designed with that principle. Nowadays we have more or less decided that weak typing is almost always a bad idea, and Python is an example of a modern dynamically typed, and also strongly typed, language.
- wing-_-nuts 2y ago
  Yeah this is probably someone that doesn't like type script or type hints in python. If you're slinging dynamically typed code for your own personal project, go nuts, but if you're working with a team that 'typing noise' really helps
jodrellblank 2y ago
> "All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them, and only walk their walk, not yours." ... and? Cars have automatic chokes, power assisted steering, hydraulic brakes, airbags, seatbelts, auto-dimming mirrors, self-running wipers, and it's fine. People argue that driving a stick-shift is more authentic but even they use syncromesh and clutches, they don't complain about how rubber tyres are for wimps and they use cartwheel-style metal bands wrapped around wood. They don't complain about having a differential instead of fixed drive to the axel. A plain editor relies on terminals displaying multiple lines and updating them, filesystems for storage, an OS, a keyboard, ASCII or equivalent, maybe virtual memory management and TUIs and "then you can't live without them"! (scream emoji). But so what, it's not a problem, nobody seriously programs on punched cards because they don't want to become dependent on screens and keyboards. You can make a case that artisan craftsman furniture is better quality than Ikea furniture but that's not because the artisan avoids factory machinery and uses hand tools, it's that the artisan spends more time and effort and takes longer (and needs to charge a lot more money). If you want to make the case that the artisan shouldn't use tape-measures, laser levels, power sanders, power saws, dust masks, wood glue, clamps, they should use a pencil behind the ear, a thumb's width and a handsaw because that's how they learn the True Nature of Wood(tm) then maybe you're just posturing and gatekeeping, or have some sort of Amish-style religion. Calling power tools 'crutches' is so you can imply that people who use them have disabled themselves. Instead it's like saying people who commute 20 miles to work in a car are using the car as a crutch because you can just walk 5 hours each way and that's more real. It's embarassing that people are so desperately trying to claim both "I don't use power tools because power tools are for weak babies and I'm a STRONG MAN" and in the same breath "my editor can do everything an IDE can do, it isn't inferior, it is a power tool!". > "Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.." Just turning off thermometer and oven temperature controls freaks recent cooks ... even quite good ones. Are you going to make the case that restaurants would be better if all cooks worked like your grandma with a log fire who had learned the right feel of heat for bread, cake, or roasts? No? Because that's obviously silly? But what if those developers one day in 2025 find themselves on a monochrome screen, with no shades of gray and no underlines or italics and no option to buy an alternative, hah what then?! Isn't that obviously also silly? NB. you didn't remove paragraphs or punctuation or capital letters from your comment, maybe you're just not a good writer and need these assistive crutches?
vunderba 2y ago
> All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them. There's a bit of "silly flexing" and projecting here but not entirely without merit. At regular intervals I'll actually turn all my IDE features off just to give myself a refresher. I would imagine that if you took away most IDE syntactical sugar, the vast majority of relatively competent devs could adapt in short order to it. To me it's the equivalent of using an IME to type Chinese, but occasionally I'll just sit down and physically write the characters on pen/paper. Do I need to do it? Not really, but I enjoy how it forces me into a state of uncomfortableness. > Then the trend to pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise, because "it would be IDeditor-friendly". Form over function I honestly have zero idea what you're trying to say here. You mean Typescript or using JSDocs to inform type expectations? What exactly is the issue? These kinds of arguments get "trot out" all the bloody time. Whatever I grew up with was the most ideal - whatever came after is just a crutch. For that matter, why are you using a high-level language like Javascript or C#? Don't you know that it's a crutch and gets in the way of true programming understanding? You should be using magnetized needles to etch machine code directly onto disk platters.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  I'll have you know that among GC languages C# gets you the closest to "using a magnetized needle and a steady hand"!
UltraSane 2y ago
"Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.. i observed it." Because it really does make code much easier to read and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to not use it.

pjc50 2y ago

> pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise Yeah, this is going to be extremely controversial: your so-called untyped language actually has types in, and they're important, but only the program can see them at runtime because you've not written them down anywhere. The real solution to "repeating myself writing down types" is Hindley-Milner inference, which dates back to 1958, and more languages should use it!

rootnod3 2y ago
Yeah, but even there, if one were to use no LSP or other completions, Hindley Milner doesn't help while editing as you won't see the inferred types. It comes down back to good naming and the compiler at the end.
zahlman 2y ago
IMX, people who use the term "untyped language" generally: a) use languages with Hindley-Milner inference; b) don't consider things that can "only the program can see at runtime" to qualify as "types".
- pjc50 2y ago
  If your language lets you add a number to a string or divide a dictionary by a boolean, that's .. exciting, but also the sort of thing that produces https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
  - zahlman 2y ago
    True, but also irrelevant. Python is strongly, but dynamically typed. You cannot do the things you describe in Python, but it's still considered "untyped" in that framework because it performs its type checks at runtime.
  - teddyh 2y ago
    Those “Wat”s are mostly the result ot weak typing, (as opposed to strong typing) which is an entirely orthogonal concept to static/dynamic typing. Don’t confuse the two concepts. Older languages which first started to experiment with dynamic typing also tended to use weak typing. But as things progressed, weak typing was considered less good in serious languages, while it was still expected in “scripting” languages, and Javascript was designed with that principle. Nowadays we have more or less decided that weak typing is almost always a bad idea, and Python is an example of a modern dynamically typed, and also strongly typed, language.
wing-_-nuts 2y ago
Yeah this is probably someone that doesn't like type script or type hints in python. If you're slinging dynamically typed code for your own personal project, go nuts, but if you're working with a team that 'typing noise' really helps

jodrellblank 2y ago

> "All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them, and only walk their walk, not yours." ... and? Cars have automatic chokes, power assisted steering, hydraulic brakes, airbags, seatbelts, auto-dimming mirrors, self-running wipers, and it's fine. People argue that driving a stick-shift is more authentic but even they use syncromesh and clutches, they don't complain about how rubber tyres are for wimps and they use cartwheel-style metal bands wrapped around wood. They don't complain about having a differential instead of fixed drive to the axel. A plain editor relies on terminals displaying multiple lines and updating them, filesystems for storage, an OS, a keyboard, ASCII or equivalent, maybe virtual memory management and TUIs and "then you can't live without them"! (scream emoji). But so what, it's not a problem, nobody seriously programs on punched cards because they don't want to become dependent on screens and keyboards. You can make a case that artisan craftsman furniture is better quality than Ikea furniture but that's not because the artisan avoids factory machinery and uses hand tools, it's that the artisan spends more time and effort and takes longer (and needs to charge a lot more money). If you want to make the case that the artisan shouldn't use tape-measures, laser levels, power sanders, power saws, dust masks, wood glue, clamps, they should use a pencil behind the ear, a thumb's width and a handsaw because that's how they learn the True Nature of Wood(tm) then maybe you're just posturing and gatekeeping, or have some sort of Amish-style religion. Calling power tools 'crutches' is so you can imply that people who use them have disabled themselves. Instead it's like saying people who commute 20 miles to work in a car are using the car as a crutch because you can just walk 5 hours each way and that's more real. It's embarassing that people are so desperately trying to claim both "I don't use power tools because power tools are for weak babies and I'm a STRONG MAN" and in the same breath "my editor can do everything an IDE can do, it isn't inferior, it is a power tool!". > "Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.." Just turning off thermometer and oven temperature controls freaks recent cooks ... even quite good ones. Are you going to make the case that restaurants would be better if all cooks worked like your grandma with a log fire who had learned the right feel of heat for bread, cake, or roasts? No? Because that's obviously silly? But what if those developers one day in 2025 find themselves on a monochrome screen, with no shades of gray and no underlines or italics and no option to buy an alternative, hah what then?! Isn't that obviously also silly? NB. you didn't remove paragraphs or punctuation or capital letters from your comment, maybe you're just not a good writer and need these assistive crutches?

vunderba 2y ago

> All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them. There's a bit of "silly flexing" and projecting here but not entirely without merit. At regular intervals I'll actually turn all my IDE features off just to give myself a refresher. I would imagine that if you took away most IDE syntactical sugar, the vast majority of relatively competent devs could adapt in short order to it. To me it's the equivalent of using an IME to type Chinese, but occasionally I'll just sit down and physically write the characters on pen/paper. Do I need to do it? Not really, but I enjoy how it forces me into a state of uncomfortableness. > Then the trend to pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise, because "it would be IDeditor-friendly". Form over function I honestly have zero idea what you're trying to say here. You mean Typescript or using JSDocs to inform type expectations? What exactly is the issue? These kinds of arguments get "trot out" all the bloody time. Whatever I grew up with was the most ideal - whatever came after is just a crutch. For that matter, why are you using a high-level language like Javascript or C#? Don't you know that it's a crutch and gets in the way of true programming understanding? You should be using magnetized needles to etch machine code directly onto disk platters.

neonsunset 2y ago
I'll have you know that among GC languages C# gets you the closest to "using a magnetized needle and a steady hand"!

UltraSane 2y ago

"Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.. i observed it." Because it really does make code much easier to read and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to not use it.