4 ms·

Your snark is a bit unfair. But I also noted how far-left and anti-capitalistic many talks/speaker are. I guess it shows the power differential between US vs Eu

by ralfd 2y ago

Your snark is a bit unfair. But I also noted how far-left and anti-capitalistic many talks/speaker are. I guess it shows the power differential between US vs Europe/Germany and also the difference between disrupting American and risk-averse European culture? Super smart people in the Bay Area found startups to get rich (and invent the future). Super smart people in Germany can only go into academia and research how to decolonize digital activism.

jeffreygoesto 2y ago
Maybe it is a valid position to ask where the money for "get rich" comes from and if society would be different if it wasn't all about that money trickling upwards? Have you been to schools or nursing homes lately, having to let dear relatives go there?
- cbmuser 2y ago
  Have been to any actual socialist country? Have experienced what scarcity means and what it feels like to be locked into your own country without a real chance of leaving until you reach retirement age?
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    I have yet to see someone advocating for actual socialism. There is a huge difference between social democracy and socialism, but it's a popular argumentation technique in the US to pretend that they are the same.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      There are socialist parties in every European countries, and some of them get a lot of votes. In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag. In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators... Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too. On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.
      - CrLf 2y ago
        Perhaps it's important to point out that socialism != communism. I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe. Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism). In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        > Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.
        CrLf 2y ago
        You may want to look into the ideologies of European political parties that have "socialist" in their names, instead of relying on definitions from the Soviet revolution. Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.
        davrosthedalek 2y ago
        For the more central block parties, this is correct. But for many ultra-left and ultra-right parties, this is not necessarily true. There are true Marxist or Stalinist blocks in many of the ultra-left. There are straight-up fascists in the right wing "national socialist" parties.
        tcfhgj 2y ago
        what is ultra-left?
        2y ago
  - Ladsko 2y ago
    The point is to meet somewhere in the middle and find compromises that prohibit uncontrolled growth of wealth and power by single individuals without crippling the economy too much. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    There is a significant middle-ground between Libertarian Utopia/Dystopia (delete as appropriate) and North Korea, you realise?
  - andrepd 2y ago
    Almost nobody except fringe groups means "Marxism-Leninism" when they say "socialism". I'm sure you understand this.
  - jeffreygoesto 2y ago
    I spent enough parts of my youth in one, to know, yes. I know how you adapt to the inevitable.
ahartmetz 2y ago
I'm not sure if the ones researching how to decolonize digital cat spaces are the super smart ones.
imiric 2y ago
> I also noted how far-left and anti-capitalistic many talks/speaker are. Why is this suprising? The hacker culture is rooted in anti-establishment philosophy, spun off from the hippy movement of the 1960s. This is not a regional thing. It's more than a bit ironic that this site is called "hacker news", yet is hosted by a company that holds opposite ideals. :) The term "hacker" has largely lost its original meaning, most notably from being vilified by mainstream media. Hack the planet! \m/
- BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
  The establishment has changed "a bit", though.
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    Are you saying that the establishment is anti capitalist?
    - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
      No, but it's certainly pro "individualism" and hedonism. Anything that can dilute the moral fiber of a nation to make it easier to rule. You'd have to be delusional to think you're fighting The Man^tm when you stand for immigration and LGBT, at least in western Europe.
      - bowsamic 2y ago
        Oh yes, I definitely agree, but I think that the CCC are aware of the risks of neoliberalism
- luckylion 2y ago
  It's "wow, what cool things I can do with this new tech" vs "wow, this new tech is pretty dangerous, let me show you" -- it's a very different mindset. In the end, you can be anti-establishment all you want, it's very hard to let go of your culture.

by ralfd 2y ago

jeffreygoesto 2y ago

Maybe it is a valid position to ask where the money for "get rich" comes from and if society would be different if it wasn't all about that money trickling upwards? Have you been to schools or nursing homes lately, having to let dear relatives go there?

cbmuser 2y ago
Have been to any actual socialist country? Have experienced what scarcity means and what it feels like to be locked into your own country without a real chance of leaving until you reach retirement age?
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  I have yet to see someone advocating for actual socialism. There is a huge difference between social democracy and socialism, but it's a popular argumentation technique in the US to pretend that they are the same.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    There are socialist parties in every European countries, and some of them get a lot of votes. In Germany, Die Linke is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and current has 39 MPs in the Bundestag. In France, LFI (France Unbowed) is anti-capitalist and advocates "actual socialism" and currently has 71 MPs in the French parliament (second largest party by number of MPs...). There are also several smaller parties that are more "hardcore", including the historic French Communist Party that still has 8 MPs and 14 Senators... Now I do agree that social democracy is not socialism, but again, plenty of socialists in Europe, too. On a related note, when people claim that they are "anti-capitalist" (which seems to be more popular than claiming to be socialist) it does not really leave many alternatives, just semantic flavours of socialism.
    - CrLf 2y ago
      Perhaps it's important to point out that socialism != communism. I think this is something the US really doesn't understand about Europe. Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society, which is the opposite of communism (and capitalism). In fact, US capitalism is much closer to communism regarding societal outcomes (social injustice, power concentration) than European socialism. It is very much possible to be anti-capitalist and anti-communist at the same time .
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        > Socialism is about putting people first and making sure no one is left behind by society No, that's not what socialism is but I won't develop here because the definition is so available and well-known.
        CrLf 2y ago
        You may want to look into the ideologies of European political parties that have "socialist" in their names, instead of relying on definitions from the Soviet revolution. Socialism in Europe is social democracy. The only difference between "socialist" and "social democratic" parties in Europe is how fractionally close to the right or left side of the center line they are.
        davrosthedalek 2y ago
        For the more central block parties, this is correct. But for many ultra-left and ultra-right parties, this is not necessarily true. There are true Marxist or Stalinist blocks in many of the ultra-left. There are straight-up fascists in the right wing "national socialist" parties.
        tcfhgj 2y ago
        what is ultra-left?
        2y ago
- Ladsko 2y ago
  The point is to meet somewhere in the middle and find compromises that prohibit uncontrolled growth of wealth and power by single individuals without crippling the economy too much. It does not have to be one extreme or the other.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  There is a significant middle-ground between Libertarian Utopia/Dystopia (delete as appropriate) and North Korea, you realise?
- andrepd 2y ago
  Almost nobody except fringe groups means "Marxism-Leninism" when they say "socialism". I'm sure you understand this.
- jeffreygoesto 2y ago
  I spent enough parts of my youth in one, to know, yes. I know how you adapt to the inevitable.

ahartmetz 2y ago

I'm not sure if the ones researching how to decolonize digital cat spaces are the super smart ones.

imiric 2y ago

> I also noted how far-left and anti-capitalistic many talks/speaker are. Why is this suprising? The hacker culture is rooted in anti-establishment philosophy, spun off from the hippy movement of the 1960s. This is not a regional thing. It's more than a bit ironic that this site is called "hacker news", yet is hosted by a company that holds opposite ideals. :) The term "hacker" has largely lost its original meaning, most notably from being vilified by mainstream media. Hack the planet! \m/

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
The establishment has changed "a bit", though.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Are you saying that the establishment is anti capitalist?
  - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
    No, but it's certainly pro "individualism" and hedonism. Anything that can dilute the moral fiber of a nation to make it easier to rule. You'd have to be delusional to think you're fighting The Man^tm when you stand for immigration and LGBT, at least in western Europe.
    - bowsamic 2y ago
      Oh yes, I definitely agree, but I think that the CCC are aware of the risks of neoliberalism
luckylion 2y ago
It's "wow, what cool things I can do with this new tech" vs "wow, this new tech is pretty dangerous, let me show you" -- it's a very different mindset. In the end, you can be anti-establishment all you want, it's very hard to let go of your culture.