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I live in PNW right now, and man, oh man, I dearly miss even a watered down version of a "3rd place bar culture" of the east coast. Would be so awesome to have

I live in PNW right now, and man, oh man, I dearly miss even a watered down version of a "3rd place bar culture" of the east coast. Would be so awesome to have a designated place to just have a drink and chat with your neighbours. There are bunch of coffee shops, but most people are free in the evening. And getting just a tiny bit loose and shooting the shit is definitely more of a bar thing. I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!

ipaddr 2y ago
It sounds like something simple enough for you to setup. You have the passion direct it locally and see what grows.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Problem is the funding. I can't really afford to risk at the bare minimum of $300K and try to grow it from there myself. Maybe one day, or if I find someone who shares the passion. If only there could be some weird AI angle to throw in to get some funding, am I right?!
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    The second you start serving alcohol, you start being liable for things people do after they leave your establishment. Or even in your establishment. Your personal assets are at stake, and at that point, it doesn’t make sense to run something as a charity.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      Yeah, I wouldn’t even enjoy running it as a charity, as that would be an enormous sacrifice. I wonder if someone did a cost analysis of Costco-style membership analysis for a bar. I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      I don't understand any of what you guys say. What is there to fund? You just have to advertise a bit a meetup in some social medias and choose a place. During the actual event, you aren't the one serving alcohol, there is nothing to be liable with and people are free to order non alcohol drinks. It is just random people meeting at a bar.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        tokyioyoyo was writing about making a place with the goal of having people meet and hang out. A bar doesn’t necessarily have that goal, it may have a goal of meeting a certain amount of revenue, most easily accomplished by incentivizing turnover.
      - tokioyoyo 2y ago
        Yeah, I wasn't talking about a "meetup group". I was talking about a spot where I could go on any given day, sit down, have a drink and just chat with whoever is sitting nearby, with the chances that they also live somewhere nearby. Think of British pub culture, but imported to PNW. In my area, we have exactly 0 of those spots, despite having a decent amount of bars and restaurants in the area. As it was mentioned in the comments, it usually boils down to regulation and financial problems to have a place like that, unless you've been grandfathered in.
        prmoustache 2y ago
        I guess your only choice is to vote for representatives that remove stupid zone rules and/or stop living in suburbia, and move to a city or a small town or to a different country. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - vharuck 2y ago
      I was chatting with a guy running a bakery/board game store. He was saying how hard the finances were (the store eventually folded), and he mentioned the price of alcohol insurance. The store didn't serve alcohol, so I asked why he had it. He said that (at least in Pennsylvania), if a visibly intoxicated customer left his store and got into an accident, he could be sued. Maybe not successfully, but it wouldn't necessarily be thrown out by the judge. It's why there are so many stores with BYOB around me: if they have to get insured anyways, might as well invite the business.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        The US has an enormous problem with the costs of litigation gumming up society’s gears. From healthcare to police to even just having a neighbor’s kid get injured in your backyard. Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises. Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.
BigFnTelly 2y ago
I feel this so strongly. same story as you, and the postal code idea is brilliant. I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline). Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress. While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least. in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp. the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Glad to hear someone else shares these feelings! I've met very kind and amazing people in the area, yet there is just nothing that brings people together. You'll hear from the people in local facebook groups about some small gatherings, but it's just still all "planned". It doesn't replace that "ah, i'm done with work, i'll quickly grab a drink and see who's around!" chats. I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
  - computerthings 2y ago
    Seeing the place where you have lived for years and decades, and the people who you met a million times, with the eyes and openness of a traveler, would be such a gift. I wonder if it could be practiced somehow. > yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections. If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.
CalRobert 2y ago
One issue is that the "local pub" is less local, since building places like that (or even cafes) in the neighbourhoods where people live is illegal. I loved having a corner pub when I lived in Dublin. Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  I live in one of the densest neighbourhoods in NA, and I definitely agree with you how it's mostly illegal to open a pub in extremely residential zone. That being said, there are like 10 bars I can think of that's around me. But none cater for that "local pub" atmosphere. What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
  - rat87 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Order_of_Elks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde... He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building. And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier. Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong. https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders > But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway. ... > The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one. >Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.” ... > The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.” > The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of its ritual from the Freemasons, then one of the largest organizations in the country. By 1910, Elks done away with almost all of the ritual — including secret handshakes and passwords — and settled into the function they held for much of the 20th century: a group of (white) men, initiated only upon recommendation from another member of the lodge, who paid yearly dues, enjoyed lavish facilities built with those dues, and donated time and money to local, state, and national charities.
consf 2y ago
A setup like that could transform the way people engage with their local community
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Yeah, I’m on the younger side, compared to the old timers I’ve met at the bars. But from what I’ve gathered, nowadays, people want to choose their friends and curate their circles. There’s much less importance given to serendipity and just local connections. Some sort of easy activity (weekly grab-a-drink at a pub) would be great, but convincing people that it is a great way to spend time might be a challenging (but fun!) mission. Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.
anal_reactor 2y ago
> be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator. A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  > Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator. I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding. > Case in point: why work parties are so dry? I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer. Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    > there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding. Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      There's a very big range between "behave like a 10 year old school child on their first day at school" and "get absolutely plastered, and start sexually harassing your neighbours". And no, I'm not making things up, I've seen this happen, personally. If the latter is a 10, an establishment could kick anyone out above the level of 8. Get drunk, misbehave to a point, break a pint or two throughout a year, that's fine.
aziaziazi 2y ago
I was in Iran 5 years ago and the "3rd place" was the tea/coffee places full of men mostly talking and playing chest during the hotter part of the day. Women gathered at home on their huge sofas. At Friday/Saturday night (IIRC) all the cities families go out and gather in public parce for night picnics. It's a fantastic experience to have. People make music, kids plays together, and families talk to each other over the shoulder. There's many wrong things with that country but ho boy they know of to gather. People bring their huge carpets and some food/drinks. Sometime they're walking merchants or a small kiosk. I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.
- Xmd5a 2y ago
  Justine, you need to learn to think for yourself.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    Who’s Justine? Do I miss a reference?
    - Xmd5a 2y ago
      Says the man who has settled in the basement.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  I'd no idea chess was so big in Iran. Alireza a household name?
  - swat535 2y ago
    Canadian Iranian here , yes it’s a common name, even my dad was called “Ali” short for his full name “Alireza”. Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well. Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out. It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..
bell-cot 2y ago
Old (American) geezer PoV - that sounds very similar to any number of fraternal and veterans organizations of a half-ish century ago. And not dissimilar to what many municipalities are trying to do with senior citizens' centers. And ... Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place. These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.
HEmanZ 2y ago
These small local bars are usually illegal in the US unless they’ve been grandfathered in. The solution probably isn’t some fancy new membership scheme, just literally allowing them to exist in the first place. At least, we should try that first.
- bratwurst3000 2y ago
  could you tell me why? as a german with a pub in every little village i cant see the reason
  - gosub100 2y ago
    see my previous comment in this thread (if you're asking why they are "illegal", really just forbidden by zoning laws)
  - boomboomsubban 2y ago
    They're discussing relatively urban areas. As an American who has lived in the middle of nowhere, every little town still has a pub. I've been in many towns with nothing but a post office and a bar to servic the under 100 residents.
  - goodpoint 2y ago
    Because car manufacturer want people to drive so they created zoning laws accordingly.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Source? I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them. Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
  - stetrain 2y ago
    In the US especially post WW2 we implemented a zoning system which mostly groups the same type of building (residential, commercial, industrial) together. In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved. So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants. There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.
specialist 2y ago
We used to have some of these. Back when rents were much lower. eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever. I've long wondered how to recreate such venues. Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers). But the qwan is just a bit off. Why? Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...) Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something. Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places". /ramble
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  I absolutely agree with every single sentence. I've tried some group meet ups as well, but it just doesn't pan out. Going out by myself is also boring in the area, because for whatever reason, everything feels like a "destination for a group". I enjoy going out for drinks with friends, sure, but would be nice to have the "sit at the bar, shoot the shit, and have a drink by myself" option. From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here... My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy. Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.
ping00 2y ago
Come to Harry's on 15th on Thursdays (8:30 pm + ). It's where the local hackers (2600 and DEFCON crowd) usually hang out and socialize. Ask Will (the bartender, who's great) for the hacker crowd and he'll point you in the right direction. I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me. I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months. I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  I’m across the border, unfortunately! Otherwise would take your invite on a heartbeat, really appreciate it. Maybe next time I’m down in Seattle!

ipaddr 2y ago

It sounds like something simple enough for you to setup. You have the passion direct it locally and see what grows.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
Problem is the funding. I can't really afford to risk at the bare minimum of $300K and try to grow it from there myself. Maybe one day, or if I find someone who shares the passion. If only there could be some weird AI angle to throw in to get some funding, am I right?!
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  The second you start serving alcohol, you start being liable for things people do after they leave your establishment. Or even in your establishment. Your personal assets are at stake, and at that point, it doesn’t make sense to run something as a charity.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Yeah, I wouldn’t even enjoy running it as a charity, as that would be an enormous sacrifice. I wonder if someone did a cost analysis of Costco-style membership analysis for a bar. I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    I don't understand any of what you guys say. What is there to fund? You just have to advertise a bit a meetup in some social medias and choose a place. During the actual event, you aren't the one serving alcohol, there is nothing to be liable with and people are free to order non alcohol drinks. It is just random people meeting at a bar.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      tokyioyoyo was writing about making a place with the goal of having people meet and hang out. A bar doesn’t necessarily have that goal, it may have a goal of meeting a certain amount of revenue, most easily accomplished by incentivizing turnover.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      Yeah, I wasn't talking about a "meetup group". I was talking about a spot where I could go on any given day, sit down, have a drink and just chat with whoever is sitting nearby, with the chances that they also live somewhere nearby. Think of British pub culture, but imported to PNW. In my area, we have exactly 0 of those spots, despite having a decent amount of bars and restaurants in the area. As it was mentioned in the comments, it usually boils down to regulation and financial problems to have a place like that, unless you've been grandfathered in.
      - prmoustache 2y ago
        I guess your only choice is to vote for representatives that remove stupid zone rules and/or stop living in suburbia, and move to a city or a small town or to a different country. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - vharuck 2y ago
    I was chatting with a guy running a bakery/board game store. He was saying how hard the finances were (the store eventually folded), and he mentioned the price of alcohol insurance. The store didn't serve alcohol, so I asked why he had it. He said that (at least in Pennsylvania), if a visibly intoxicated customer left his store and got into an accident, he could be sued. Maybe not successfully, but it wouldn't necessarily be thrown out by the judge. It's why there are so many stores with BYOB around me: if they have to get insured anyways, might as well invite the business.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      The US has an enormous problem with the costs of litigation gumming up society’s gears. From healthcare to police to even just having a neighbor’s kid get injured in your backyard. Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises. Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.

BigFnTelly 2y ago

I feel this so strongly. same story as you, and the postal code idea is brilliant. I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline). Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress. While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least. in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp. the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
Glad to hear someone else shares these feelings! I've met very kind and amazing people in the area, yet there is just nothing that brings people together. You'll hear from the people in local facebook groups about some small gatherings, but it's just still all "planned". It doesn't replace that "ah, i'm done with work, i'll quickly grab a drink and see who's around!" chats. I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
- computerthings 2y ago
  Seeing the place where you have lived for years and decades, and the people who you met a million times, with the eyes and openness of a traveler, would be such a gift. I wonder if it could be practiced somehow. > yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections. If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.

CalRobert 2y ago

One issue is that the "local pub" is less local, since building places like that (or even cafes) in the neighbourhoods where people live is illegal. I loved having a corner pub when I lived in Dublin. Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?

tokioyoyo 2y ago
I live in one of the densest neighbourhoods in NA, and I definitely agree with you how it's mostly illegal to open a pub in extremely residential zone. That being said, there are like 10 bars I can think of that's around me. But none cater for that "local pub" atmosphere. What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
- rat87 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Order_of_Elks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde... He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building. And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier. Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong. https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders > But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway. ... > The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one. >Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.” ... > The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.” > The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of its ritual from the Freemasons, then one of the largest organizations in the country. By 1910, Elks done away with almost all of the ritual — including secret handshakes and passwords — and settled into the function they held for much of the 20th century: a group of (white) men, initiated only upon recommendation from another member of the lodge, who paid yearly dues, enjoyed lavish facilities built with those dues, and donated time and money to local, state, and national charities.

consf 2y ago

A setup like that could transform the way people engage with their local community

tokioyoyo 2y ago
Yeah, I’m on the younger side, compared to the old timers I’ve met at the bars. But from what I’ve gathered, nowadays, people want to choose their friends and curate their circles. There’s much less importance given to serendipity and just local connections. Some sort of easy activity (weekly grab-a-drink at a pub) would be great, but convincing people that it is a great way to spend time might be a challenging (but fun!) mission. Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.

anal_reactor 2y ago

> be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator. A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
> Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator. I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding. > Case in point: why work parties are so dry? I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer. Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  > there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding. Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    There's a very big range between "behave like a 10 year old school child on their first day at school" and "get absolutely plastered, and start sexually harassing your neighbours". And no, I'm not making things up, I've seen this happen, personally. If the latter is a 10, an establishment could kick anyone out above the level of 8. Get drunk, misbehave to a point, break a pint or two throughout a year, that's fine.

aziaziazi 2y ago

I was in Iran 5 years ago and the "3rd place" was the tea/coffee places full of men mostly talking and playing chest during the hotter part of the day. Women gathered at home on their huge sofas. At Friday/Saturday night (IIRC) all the cities families go out and gather in public parce for night picnics. It's a fantastic experience to have. People make music, kids plays together, and families talk to each other over the shoulder. There's many wrong things with that country but ho boy they know of to gather. People bring their huge carpets and some food/drinks. Sometime they're walking merchants or a small kiosk. I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.

Xmd5a 2y ago
Justine, you need to learn to think for yourself.
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  Who’s Justine? Do I miss a reference?
  - Xmd5a 2y ago
    Says the man who has settled in the basement.
ANewFormation 2y ago
I'd no idea chess was so big in Iran. Alireza a household name?
- swat535 2y ago
  Canadian Iranian here , yes it’s a common name, even my dad was called “Ali” short for his full name “Alireza”. Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well. Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out. It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..

bell-cot 2y ago

Old (American) geezer PoV - that sounds very similar to any number of fraternal and veterans organizations of a half-ish century ago. And not dissimilar to what many municipalities are trying to do with senior citizens' centers. And ... Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place. These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.

HEmanZ 2y ago

These small local bars are usually illegal in the US unless they’ve been grandfathered in. The solution probably isn’t some fancy new membership scheme, just literally allowing them to exist in the first place. At least, we should try that first.

bratwurst3000 2y ago
could you tell me why? as a german with a pub in every little village i cant see the reason
- gosub100 2y ago
  see my previous comment in this thread (if you're asking why they are "illegal", really just forbidden by zoning laws)
- boomboomsubban 2y ago
  They're discussing relatively urban areas. As an American who has lived in the middle of nowhere, every little town still has a pub. I've been in many towns with nothing but a post office and a bar to servic the under 100 residents.
- goodpoint 2y ago
  Because car manufacturer want people to drive so they created zoning laws accordingly.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Source? I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them. Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
- stetrain 2y ago
  In the US especially post WW2 we implemented a zoning system which mostly groups the same type of building (residential, commercial, industrial) together. In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved. So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants. There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.

specialist 2y ago

We used to have some of these. Back when rents were much lower. eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever. I've long wondered how to recreate such venues. Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers). But the qwan is just a bit off. Why? Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...) Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something. Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places". /ramble

tokioyoyo 2y ago
I absolutely agree with every single sentence. I've tried some group meet ups as well, but it just doesn't pan out. Going out by myself is also boring in the area, because for whatever reason, everything feels like a "destination for a group". I enjoy going out for drinks with friends, sure, but would be nice to have the "sit at the bar, shoot the shit, and have a drink by myself" option. From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here... My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy. Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.

ping00 2y ago

Come to Harry's on 15th on Thursdays (8:30 pm + ). It's where the local hackers (2600 and DEFCON crowd) usually hang out and socialize. Ask Will (the bartender, who's great) for the hacker crowd and he'll point you in the right direction. I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me. I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months. I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)

tokioyoyo 2y ago
I’m across the border, unfortunately! Otherwise would take your invite on a heartbeat, really appreciate it. Maybe next time I’m down in Seattle!