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> If I do program, it's purely as a hobby, while professionally, I only work on scripts and automation. I've always find it strange about the exclusion of "scr

> If I do program, it's purely as a hobby, while professionally, I only work on scripts and automation. I've always find it strange about the exclusion of "scripting" from programming. Scripts are programs, writing script is programming.

booleandilemma 2y ago
Sure, in the same way that building a sandcastle, a doghouse, a single family home, and a skyscraper are all construction.
- Aperocky 2y ago
  I work on all of them, if you have skyscraper of a project, which I worked on a quite a few, you can't run them without having the supporting "scripts" to define infrastructure, test, deploy, run canaries, gather metric putting them into dashboard, setting up alarms etc. etc. You'd be surprised at how much engineering effort is NOT going into that skyscraper despite everything being built around it.
m463 2y ago
I've found there are a couple biases that people have, and scripting is viewed as not-real-programming. I thought maybe because there's no binaries, no compiling, but python seems to get a pass. I recall another bias from the past regarding windows administration. People looked down on windows administration as a real job, I believe because it was gui-based and "anyone can use a gui". On the other hand, I have also seen a lot of people hamstring themselves. One friend I knew was exceptional at math and actually quite a proficient fortran programmer. He had a lot of experience, but he was just missing a few key concepts. For example, some function with tricky arguments, he would just call it a bunch of times in a row instead of figuring out how to use a loop. Or people who hunt and peck, have been doing it for decades, know exactly where all the keys are, but only want to use their index fingers to type. I think there are some people who are SO CLOSE, but lack a few bridges to fluency or independence or something similar. Sort of frustrating to see from the outside.
- orwin 2y ago
  What? Competent Windows admins are probably the best/most hardworking sysadmins in the world. Not because they're inherently better, but windows is so complex and dumb, you have to be great to be good at this. I remember my first internship, we tried to install IIS and 2 different PHP version (along with their crypt lib, that's what caused difficulties), it took us 3 weeks. Using two PHP version on any unix, even for people who have no idea how to, is extremely straightforward. Mad respect for windows sysadmins.
  - m463 2y ago
    I know, right? But that's the bias I saw. It was unenlightened.

booleandilemma 2y ago

Sure, in the same way that building a sandcastle, a doghouse, a single family home, and a skyscraper are all construction.

Aperocky 2y ago
I work on all of them, if you have skyscraper of a project, which I worked on a quite a few, you can't run them without having the supporting "scripts" to define infrastructure, test, deploy, run canaries, gather metric putting them into dashboard, setting up alarms etc. etc. You'd be surprised at how much engineering effort is NOT going into that skyscraper despite everything being built around it.

m463 2y ago

I've found there are a couple biases that people have, and scripting is viewed as not-real-programming. I thought maybe because there's no binaries, no compiling, but python seems to get a pass. I recall another bias from the past regarding windows administration. People looked down on windows administration as a real job, I believe because it was gui-based and "anyone can use a gui". On the other hand, I have also seen a lot of people hamstring themselves. One friend I knew was exceptional at math and actually quite a proficient fortran programmer. He had a lot of experience, but he was just missing a few key concepts. For example, some function with tricky arguments, he would just call it a bunch of times in a row instead of figuring out how to use a loop. Or people who hunt and peck, have been doing it for decades, know exactly where all the keys are, but only want to use their index fingers to type. I think there are some people who are SO CLOSE, but lack a few bridges to fluency or independence or something similar. Sort of frustrating to see from the outside.

orwin 2y ago
What? Competent Windows admins are probably the best/most hardworking sysadmins in the world. Not because they're inherently better, but windows is so complex and dumb, you have to be great to be good at this. I remember my first internship, we tried to install IIS and 2 different PHP version (along with their crypt lib, that's what caused difficulties), it took us 3 weeks. Using two PHP version on any unix, even for people who have no idea how to, is extremely straightforward. Mad respect for windows sysadmins.
- m463 2y ago
  I know, right? But that's the bias I saw. It was unenlightened.