8 ms·
Complete aside here: I used to do work with amputees and prosthetics. There is a standardized test (and I just cannot remember the name) that fits in a briefcas
by Balgair 2y ago
Complete aside here: I used to do work with amputees and prosthetics. There is a standardized test (and I just cannot remember the name) that fits in a briefcase. It's used for measuring the level of damage to the upper limbs and for prosthetic grading.
Basically, it's got the dumbest and simplest things in it. Stuff like a lock and key, a glass of water and jug, common units of currency, a zipper, etc. It tests if you can do any of those common human tasks. Like pouring a glass of water, picking up coins from a flat surface (I chew off my nails so even an able person like me fails that), zip up a jacket, lock your own door, put on lipstick, etc.
We had hand prosthetics that could play Mozart at 5x speed on a baby grand, but could not pick up a silver dollar or zip a jacket even a little bit. To the patients, the hands were therefore about as useful as a metal hook (a common solution with amputees today, not just pirates!).
Again, a total aside here, but your comment just reminded me of that brown briefcase. Life, it turns out, is a lot more complex than we give it credit for. Even pouring the OJ can be, in rare cases, transcendent.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- m463 2y agoIt would be interesting to see trick questions. Like in your test a hand grenade and a pin - don't pull the pin. Or maybe a mousetrap? but maybe that would be defused? in the ai test... or Global Thermonuclear War, the only winning move is...
- sdenton4 2y agoto move first!
- m463 2y agooh crap. lol!
- HPsquared 2y agoGaming streams being in the training data, it might pull the pin because "that's what you do".
- 8note 2y agoor, because it has to give an output, and pulling the pin is the only option
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- TeMPOraL 2y agoThere's also the option of not pulling the pin, and shooting your enemies as they instinctively run from what they think is a live grenade. Saw it on a TV show the other day.
- ubj 2y agoThere's a lot of truth in this. I sometimes joke that robot benchmarks should focus on common household chores. Given a basket of mixed laundry, sort and fold everything into organized piles. Load a dishwasher given a sink and counters overflowing with dishes piled up haphazardly. Clean a bedroom that kids have trashed. We do these tasks almost without thinking, but the unstructured nature presents challenges for robots.
- Balgair 2y agoI maintain that whoever invents a robust laundry folding robot will be a trillionaire. In that, I dump jumbled clean clothes straight from a dryer at it and out comes folded and sorted clothes (and those loner socks). I know we're getting close, but I also know we're not there yet.
- sss111 2y agoHonestly, a robot that can hang jumbled clean clothes instead of folding them would be good enough, it's crazy how we don't even have those.
- oblio 2y agoLaundry folding and laundry ironing, I would say.
- musicale 2y agoHopefully will detect whether a small child is inside or not.
- imafish 2y ago> I maintain that whoever invents a robust laundry folding robot will be a trillionaire … so Elon Musk? :D
- jessekv 2y agoI want it to lay out an outfit every day too. Hopefully without hallucination.
- ecshafer 2y agoI had a pretty bad case of tendinitis once, that basically made my thumb useless since using it would cause extreme pain. That test seems really good. I could use a computer keyboard without any issue, but putting a belt on or pouring water was impossible.
- vidarh 2y agoI had a swollen elbow a short while ago, and the amount of things I've never thought about that were affected by reduced elbow join mobility and an inability to put pressure on the elbow was disturbing.
- CooCooCaCha 2y agoThat’s why the goal isn’t just benchmark scores, it’s reliable and robust intelligence. In that sense, the goalposts haven’t moved in a long time despite claims from AI enthusiasts that people are constantly moving goalposts.
- croemer 2y ago> We had hand prosthetics that could play Mozart at 5x speed on a baby grand, but could not pick up a silver dollar or zip a jacket even a little bit. " I must be missing something, how can they be able to play Mozart at 5x speed with their prosthetics but not zip a jacket? They could press keys but not do tasks requiring feedback? Or did you mean they used to play Mozart at 5x speed before they became amputees?
- rahimnathwani 2y agoImagine a prosthetic 'hand' that has 5 regular fingers, rather than 4 fingers and a thumb. It would be able to play a piano just fine, but be unable to grasp anything small, like a zipper.
- numpad0 2y agoThumb not opposable?
- 8note 2y agozipping up a jacket is really hard to do, and requires very precise movements and coordination between hands. playing mozart is much more forgiving in terms of the number of different motions you have to make in different directions, the amount of pressure to apply, and even the black keys are much bigger than large sized zipper tongues.
- Balgair 2y agoPretty much. The issue with zippers is that the fabric moves about in unpredictable ways. Piano playing was just movement programs. Zipping required (surprisingly) fast feedback. Also, gripping is somewhat tough compared to pressing.
- ben_w 2y agoPlaying a piano involves pushing down on the right keys with the right force at the right time, but that could be pre-programmed well before computers. The self-playing piano in the saloon in Westworld wasn't a huge anachronism, such things slightly overlapped with the Wild West era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_piano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_piano Picking up a 1mm thick metal disk from a flat surface requires the user gives the exact time, place, and force, and I'm not even sure what considerations it needs for surface materials (e.g. slightly squishy fake skin) and/or tip shapes (e.g. fake nails).
- alexose 2y agoIt feels like there's a whole class of information that easily shorthanded, but really hard to explain to novices. I think a lot about carpentry. From the outside, it's pretty easy: Just make the wood into the right shape and stick it together. But as one progresses, the intricacies become more apparent. Variations in the wood, the direction of the grain, the seasonal variations in thickness, joinery techniques that are durable but also time efficient. The way this information connects is highly multisensory and multimodal. I now know which species of wood to use for which applications. This knowledge was hard won through many, many mistakes and trials that took place at my home, the hardware store, the lumberyard, on YouTube, from my neighbor Steve, and in books written by experts.
- Method-X 2y agoWas it the Southampton hand assessment procedure?
- Balgair 2y agoYes! Thank you! https://www.shap.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ https://www.shap.ecs.soton.ac.uk/
- oblio 2y agoThis was actually discovered quite early on in the history of AI: > Rodney Brooks explains that, according to early AI research, intelligence was "best characterized as the things that highly educated male scientists found challenging", such as chess, symbolic integration, proving mathematical theorems and solving complicated word algebra problems. "The things that children of four or five years could do effortlessly, such as visually distinguishing between a coffee cup and a chair, or walking around on two legs, or finding their way from their bedroom to the living room were not thought of as activities requiring intelligence." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox
- bawolff 2y agoI don't know why people always feel the need to gender these things. Highly educated female scientists generally find the same things challenging.
- robocat 2y agoI don't know why anyone would blame people as though someone is making an explicit choice. I find your choice of words to be insulting to the OP. We learn our language and stereotypes subconciously from our society, and it is no easy thing to fight against that.
- Barrin92 2y ago>I don't know why people always feel the need to gender these things Because it's relevant to the point being made, i.e. that these tests reflect the biases and interests of the people who make them. This is true not just for AI tests, but intelligence test applied to humans. That Demis Hassabis, a chess player and video game designer, decided to test his machine on video games, Go and chess probably is not an accident. The more interesting question is why people respond so apprehensively to pointing out a very obvious problem and bias in test design.
- bawolff 2y ago> i.e. that these tests reflect the biases and interests of the people who make them Of course. However i believe we can't move past that without being honest about where these biases are coming from. Many things in our world are the result of gender bias, both subtle and overt. However, at least at first glance, this does not appear to be one of them, and statements like the grandparent's quote serve to perpetuate such biases further.
- drdrey 2y agoI think assembling Legos would be a cool robot benchmark: you need to parse the instructions, locate the pieces you need, pick them up, orient them, snap them to your current assembly, visually check if you achieved the desired state, repeat
- serpix 2y agoI agree. Watching my toddler daughter build with small legos makes me understand how incredible fine motor skills are as even with small fingers some of the blocks are just too hard to snap together.
- throwup238 2y agoThis is expressed in AI research as Moravec's paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox Getting to LLMs that could talk to us turned out to be a lot easier than making something that could control even a robotic arm without precise programming, let alone a humanoid.
- MarcelOlsz 2y ago>We had hand prosthetics that could play Mozart at 5x speed on a baby grand I'd love to know more about this.
- xnx 2y agoDespite lake of fearsome teeth or claws, humans are way op due to brain, hand dexterity, and balance.
- dang 2y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42473419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42473419 (nothing wrong with it! I'm just trying to prune the top subthread)