6 ms·

Aren't Mac the opposite for the developers with subpar support for say, containers and dev tools, and crappy out of the box window management compared to a lapt

Aren't Mac the opposite for the developers with subpar support for say, containers and dev tools, and crappy out of the box window management compared to a laptop running on linux? Seems to me you have to do a lot of manual tweaking and install before having something half decent as a dev.

amelius 2y ago
Apple makes consumer electronics. From a professional perspective they are toys.
- messe 2y ago
  That's an elitist attitude that has very little basis in reality. Would you care to justify it? Plenty of professionals, including developers, use Apple machines for their work, as tools not toys.
- hyhconito 2y ago
  So an actual certified commercial Unix workstation is a toy now?
  - LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
    Papier ist geduldig. (Literally paper is patient) / roughly: Paper doesn't blush.
- kergonath 2y ago
  People have been saying that for 40 years now. Give it a rest already.
- compiler-guy 2y ago
  You do realize that many, many movies have been edited in various versions of Final Cut Pro on Macs right? Including several Academy Award winners. Movies like _Parasite_, _The Social Network_, and _300_, to name just a few. If that's a toy, I'd love to hear what is industrial strength.
sgt 2y ago
Linux to me still feels like it used to be in the 90s. It's certainly improved, and package management is better, but the UI's are inconsistent and of relatively low quality. The advantage would be that you have more of a one-to-one match with what happens on the server side (which is usually Linux for most people). Some parts might require some tweaks, but usually it's a once off and then you're good to go. Containers - haven't had much issues, but you might run into some non-ARM based images for Docker, but fairly easily solved. As for window management - what do you mean? The window management to me is good, but then I never understood tiling window managers and such, if that is your requirement.
- chasil 2y ago
  You should use CDE for a week to truly appreciate 90s UNIX. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Desktop_Environment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Desktop_Environment
  - shermantanktop 2y ago
    I was there and the wiki article captures the look, but not the feel. Giant funky mouse pointers that flip which direction they point as you hover over elements, but without apparent logic...Window maximizing behavior that left you unable to get back to the desktop...Minimized windows disappearing, never to be seen again...
- jasonjayr 2y ago
  I've recently spent a considerable amount of time on Windows 11(after using linux/x11/wayland/kde for a long time),-- the UI inconsistencies are widespread there too. Microsoft is only finally finishing the push to make all control panels look consistent, and they are doing so by removing some of the more detailed options.
  - sgt 2y ago
    Ironically, Windows is not user-friendly at all these days. It was supposed to be. How could this happen?
lproven 2y ago
Another very odd comment, to me. > Aren't Mac the opposite for the developers No? > with subpar support for say, containers and dev tools, It's a Unix machine. All that is right there and readily available. > and crappy out of the box window management Not really, no. Add one app and it's a tiling environment. Actually that is built-in in macOS 15 but I've got it turned off as I have a tiling app I've been using for 15+ years and I'm happy with it. > compared to a laptop running on linux? No. It's a better UI in every way, less hassle, more apps and better support. I've been using Linux for 28 years now and for a while it improved beyond all recognition, but it's getting very clunky again with all the bloat now. I switched to macOS on my desktop machines once I could afford it, and Linux for laptops. This is a happy compromise. But I've also been writing about it for well over 25 years and that means reading other people's writing about it and where possible talking to them. All the professionals evangelising Linux in the 20th century have moved to Macs now. It's the same core experience, but done better. > Seems to me you have to do a lot of manual tweaking and install before having something half decent as a dev. I can't speak for being a developer because I'm not one, but I can speak about Linux and macOS as a pro. This is the wrong way to use a Mac. The right way to use a Mac is not to fight it. Accept things as they are, learn to work with it, and add the extras you need. You can't customise macOS very much and it's hard. So, don't. Be like bamboo, not a tree: bend with the wind, adapt to where you are, and then grow where you want to go. The result is a proper full on UNIX™ environment which needs little to no maintenance and has integration to an extent no other Unix-like OS will ever achieve. Your questions seem to me to be motivated by bias and conviction of faith, and it is misplaced, as any such fervent belief is.
- Emigre_ 2y ago
  > No. It's a better UI in every way That's very subjective. I prefer KDE Plasma.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    Subjective indeed. I like Gnome Desktop's simplicity and straightforwardness.
pjmlp 2y ago
Being a developer isn't a synonym for UNIX.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  I've worked with Unix and Windows in the past decades and each and every time the only scenario Windows wins is when I'm developing applications for Windows. Since I develop mostly for server-side, a Unix-like OS is a no-brainer. I have all three OSs on my desk and the least satisfying to use is Windows - it's relatively slow and difficult to troubleshoot device driver issues. On Linux you can always look under the hood and on Macs there is no such thing as device issues.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Yet, it is quite possible, although surprisingly in modern times, to be a developer, without dealing with UNIX, nor Windows. Developer job !== UNIX.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      There are plenty places in embedded where the toolchains exist only for Windows.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        Yeah, then again Developer job !== Windows, in case you haven't yet got the point. Being a developer has nothing to do with a specific OS in particular.
pimeys 2y ago
Yeah. I like to run docker without needing a Linux vm, I like the choice of desktop environments and they are superb for me compared to the macos desktop. KDE Plasma 6 is one of the best desktops I've ever used. Now with the atomic distros, such as Aurora, you have a rock solid base you never touch, updates are atomic so you can always reboot to the previous version if needed and you create lightweight containers for development. My current setup is Aurora as the base distro, all GUI applications from Flathub and the terminal automatically opens up in distrobox which runs Arch Linux with Nix. Super solid, super fast and everything just works.
hyhconito 2y ago
Some of us don't build containerised web applications you know. It's basically a Unix machine. A very fast and very cheap one.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
The window management thing is really overblown in my opinion. On macOS I just keep two monitors with separate virtual desktops enabled on both with apps assigned to specific desktops which reduces management to almost nothing, which is even easier and lower effort than a Win9x-paradigm desktop or tiling setup (which I’ve found requires a surprising amount of micromanagement to keep usable).

amelius 2y ago

Apple makes consumer electronics. From a professional perspective they are toys.

messe 2y ago
That's an elitist attitude that has very little basis in reality. Would you care to justify it? Plenty of professionals, including developers, use Apple machines for their work, as tools not toys.
hyhconito 2y ago
So an actual certified commercial Unix workstation is a toy now?
- LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
  Papier ist geduldig. (Literally paper is patient) / roughly: Paper doesn't blush.
kergonath 2y ago
People have been saying that for 40 years now. Give it a rest already.
compiler-guy 2y ago
You do realize that many, many movies have been edited in various versions of Final Cut Pro on Macs right? Including several Academy Award winners. Movies like _Parasite_, _The Social Network_, and _300_, to name just a few. If that's a toy, I'd love to hear what is industrial strength.

sgt 2y ago

Linux to me still feels like it used to be in the 90s. It's certainly improved, and package management is better, but the UI's are inconsistent and of relatively low quality. The advantage would be that you have more of a one-to-one match with what happens on the server side (which is usually Linux for most people). Some parts might require some tweaks, but usually it's a once off and then you're good to go. Containers - haven't had much issues, but you might run into some non-ARM based images for Docker, but fairly easily solved. As for window management - what do you mean? The window management to me is good, but then I never understood tiling window managers and such, if that is your requirement.

chasil 2y ago
You should use CDE for a week to truly appreciate 90s UNIX. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Desktop_Environment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Desktop_Environment
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  I was there and the wiki article captures the look, but not the feel. Giant funky mouse pointers that flip which direction they point as you hover over elements, but without apparent logic...Window maximizing behavior that left you unable to get back to the desktop...Minimized windows disappearing, never to be seen again...
jasonjayr 2y ago
I've recently spent a considerable amount of time on Windows 11(after using linux/x11/wayland/kde for a long time),-- the UI inconsistencies are widespread there too. Microsoft is only finally finishing the push to make all control panels look consistent, and they are doing so by removing some of the more detailed options.
- sgt 2y ago
  Ironically, Windows is not user-friendly at all these days. It was supposed to be. How could this happen?

lproven 2y ago

Another very odd comment, to me. > Aren't Mac the opposite for the developers No? > with subpar support for say, containers and dev tools, It's a Unix machine. All that is right there and readily available. > and crappy out of the box window management Not really, no. Add one app and it's a tiling environment. Actually that is built-in in macOS 15 but I've got it turned off as I have a tiling app I've been using for 15+ years and I'm happy with it. > compared to a laptop running on linux? No. It's a better UI in every way, less hassle, more apps and better support. I've been using Linux for 28 years now and for a while it improved beyond all recognition, but it's getting very clunky again with all the bloat now. I switched to macOS on my desktop machines once I could afford it, and Linux for laptops. This is a happy compromise. But I've also been writing about it for well over 25 years and that means reading other people's writing about it and where possible talking to them. All the professionals evangelising Linux in the 20th century have moved to Macs now. It's the same core experience, but done better. > Seems to me you have to do a lot of manual tweaking and install before having something half decent as a dev. I can't speak for being a developer because I'm not one, but I can speak about Linux and macOS as a pro. This is the wrong way to use a Mac. The right way to use a Mac is not to fight it. Accept things as they are, learn to work with it, and add the extras you need. You can't customise macOS very much and it's hard. So, don't. Be like bamboo, not a tree: bend with the wind, adapt to where you are, and then grow where you want to go. The result is a proper full on UNIX™ environment which needs little to no maintenance and has integration to an extent no other Unix-like OS will ever achieve. Your questions seem to me to be motivated by bias and conviction of faith, and it is misplaced, as any such fervent belief is.

Emigre_ 2y ago
> No. It's a better UI in every way That's very subjective. I prefer KDE Plasma.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Subjective indeed. I like Gnome Desktop's simplicity and straightforwardness.

pjmlp 2y ago

Being a developer isn't a synonym for UNIX.

rbanffy 2y ago
I've worked with Unix and Windows in the past decades and each and every time the only scenario Windows wins is when I'm developing applications for Windows. Since I develop mostly for server-side, a Unix-like OS is a no-brainer. I have all three OSs on my desk and the least satisfying to use is Windows - it's relatively slow and difficult to troubleshoot device driver issues. On Linux you can always look under the hood and on Macs there is no such thing as device issues.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Yet, it is quite possible, although surprisingly in modern times, to be a developer, without dealing with UNIX, nor Windows. Developer job !== UNIX.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    There are plenty places in embedded where the toolchains exist only for Windows.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Yeah, then again Developer job !== Windows, in case you haven't yet got the point. Being a developer has nothing to do with a specific OS in particular.

pimeys 2y ago

Yeah. I like to run docker without needing a Linux vm, I like the choice of desktop environments and they are superb for me compared to the macos desktop. KDE Plasma 6 is one of the best desktops I've ever used. Now with the atomic distros, such as Aurora, you have a rock solid base you never touch, updates are atomic so you can always reboot to the previous version if needed and you create lightweight containers for development. My current setup is Aurora as the base distro, all GUI applications from Flathub and the terminal automatically opens up in distrobox which runs Arch Linux with Nix. Super solid, super fast and everything just works.

hyhconito 2y ago

Some of us don't build containerised web applications you know. It's basically a Unix machine. A very fast and very cheap one.

cosmic_cheese 2y ago

The window management thing is really overblown in my opinion. On macOS I just keep two monitors with separate virtual desktops enabled on both with apps assigned to specific desktops which reduces management to almost nothing, which is even easier and lower effort than a Win9x-paradigm desktop or tiling setup (which I’ve found requires a surprising amount of micromanagement to keep usable).