4 ms·

They could stop persecuting and murdering Palestinians, stop occupying Palestine, and agree to either a one state or two state solution that recognizes Palestin

by _yb2s 2y ago

They could stop persecuting and murdering Palestinians, stop occupying Palestine, and agree to either a one state or two state solution that recognizes Palestinians as human beings with a right to live.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
[flagged]
- text0404 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    What the fuck you talking about, democratically elected Hamas has "the complete destruction of Israel" as their official policy, and polls show that only after being bombed to oblivion most Palestinians started to think that Oct 7 might've been a bad move. It's clear to me that Palestinians do not accept peace as a practical solution. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-poll-finds-big-drop-support-oct-7-attack-2024-09-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-poll-f...
    - throw310822 2y ago
      The platform of the democratically elected Likud states the same: "between the Jordan and the sea there will be only israeli sovereignty". https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... Does this authorise Hamas to go there and raze the entire country to the ground? Please let me know.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        > Does this authorise Hamas to go there and raze the entire country to the ground? Please let me know. Pretty much yes according to too many liberal professors in ivy league universities. I think human lives on both sides are quite cheap to them.
        throw310822 2y ago
        I would like to know the names of these professors and their respective quotes. I suspect that they don't really exist but are just a convenient excuse to paint the perpetrators as victims. Besides this, even if Hamas and Likud are identical in the intentions, only one side is illegally occupying and annexing the other's territory, and almost all deaths and destruction are on the other side. The situation on the ground matters- people who are oppressed have a right to defend themselves, and this comes before any stated intention.
        anal_reactor 2y ago
        > Besides this, even if Hamas and Likud are identical in the intentions In most juridical systems, it's the intent that matters.
  - bufferoverflow 2y ago
    Israel hasn't been an occupying force. They left Gaza in 2005. Palestinians decided to spend their time preparing for terrorist attacks against Israel.
    - throw310822 2y ago
      If they left Gaza in 2005, how come that that they always controlled water, electricity, movement of people, air space, sea space, and all resources access? The international community regarded Gaza as always under occupation. You can have your own (unqualified) opinions about this; that judgement is a fact.
      - bufferoverflow 2y ago
        You mean they supplied water and electricity to Gaza, even though they didn't have to.
    - maeil 2y ago
      Palestine doesn't just consist of Gaza, doing so is playing a bad faith word trick. I can't imagine you're unfamiliar with the continuous annexations and illegal settlements in the West Bank, along with the continuous razing of Palestinian buildings there. If not, you're one of today's lucky 10,000. Here's a basic introduction [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > Israel hasn't been an occupying force. Israel has indisputably been an occupying force in Palestine continuously since 1967, at the latest. > They left Gaza in 2005. They did not stop exerting control of Gaza at any point, continuing to regularly murder unarmed civilians within Gaza, without provocation, control its waters, and otherwise exercise dominion even after their tactical redeployment. Not that even if they had withdrawn from that part of Palestine it would change that they were occupying Palestine.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Israel hasn't been an occupying force. They left Gaza in 2005. That's the narrative that the State of Israel promotes. But as with many things it says, it is wildly disconnected from reality. Israel never fully "left" Gaza. It pulled its settlements and internal troop deployments, but still maintained control of the Strip's borders, martime access and air space. And continued to bomb and invade sporadically ("mowing the lawn"), according its whimsy and pleasure. That's why it still considered to be under Israeli occupation according to UN statutes. Palestinians decided to spend their time preparing for terrorist attacks against Israel. Some did, the vast majority did not but were retaliated against anyway.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > as they said: "They could stop persecuting and murdering Palestinians, stop occupying Palestine, and agree to either a one state or two state solution that recognizes Palestinians as human beings with a right to live." There's really barely any evidence Hamas would agree to a 2 state solution. The overwhelming evidence is it won't agree to it. Same for one state solution - Hamas would of course agree to cancel the state of Israel (thus creating something you could call a one state, slowly or quickly driving the Jews away) but definitely not to any kind of shared power democracy. To truly appease Hamas Israel needs to commit national suicide. That's quite a big ask for a people as persecuted as the Jews.
    - SauciestGNU 2y ago
      I don't want to pick on you because I think you raise reasonable points, but I see frequently the notion that if you have a one state solution, the Arab majority would treat the Israel minority in the way that the Israelis have been treating the Arab. I think this is spurious, we have no indication that this would actually be the case. I believe that this isn't a religious conflict and that an the to apartheid and occupation could actually bring peace. But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        > But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism What do you think drives the Palestinian movement and what are its main goals? If it was simply to get their own state surely they could have achieved it by now (as far back as in 1947). So there seems to be much more going on than simply attaining statehood - there is a very strong irredentist force among Palestinians that wants to go back to the way things were 80 or a 100 years ago. Which means returning to their original homes (I don't see how you could do that without throwing out the Jewish 'colonists'). To me that does seem to be motivated at least partly by revenge. As for antisemitism among Palestinians, it's there and widely documented (you could come up with good reasons why it's there, but denying it's there is wrong).
ghusto 2y ago
[flagged]
_yb2s 2y ago
I'm very disappointed in people flagging everyone that disagrees with me. What is the point of even coming on here if you won't have a discussion with people you disagree with, but want to censor their ability to participate? Echo chambers are useless for everyone.
- bradlys 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    It seems to be the other way around- only the pro-Palestinian posts are being allowed and the other side is being flagged and downvoted. Despite my comments being on the side that isn't being silenced, it seems very much against HN ethos to silence any side of a discussion when the people are discussing in good faith, as seems to be the case.
  - amritananda 2y ago
    Even more concerning is the Israeli tech industry's role. For example, this is what is said in a Hebrew article about Bright Data (formerly Luminati), which AFAIK owns one of the largest (legal) pools of residential IP addresses and is demonstrably capable of making a massive amount of fake social media accounts for the purposes of scraping at scale (translated by Claude): >The Israeli company Bright Data developed the TrendTrack system for promoting social intervention in support of Israel, providing tools to identify, report, and respond to posts gaining traction on social media. As a company specializing in global collection of public information from the internet, Bright Data has extensive infrastructure and public data collection capabilities. Based on these, they rapidly created massive databases that form the foundation for the new system, which aims to assist Israeli advocacy efforts during this difficult time. Interestingly the same company also helps in investigation of state-sponsored influencing campaigns of Western adversaries (China, Russia, and Iran).
EvgeniyZh 2y ago
While all of these should be done (well not the one-state solution, but nobody really considering it anyway), how do you think it will stop the terrorist attacks?
- _yb2s 2y ago
  I'm assuming that the average Palestinian feels persecuted, and is willing to support Hamas as the only group they see actively trying to do something about that, even if they don't love Hamas's methods. This support would evaporate quickly if they felt they were being treated like human beings. If I were Palestinian and terrified for my family, I could see actively donating to and supporting Hamas, while also absolutely hating them and their methods, and longing for some other option.
  - okokhacker 2y ago
    How can they hate their methods if far worse methods are being used against them? Besides, do you think someone in a war zone has the capability to support, or better yet, donate to a militant group when they’re on the brink of starving?
  - EvgeniyZh 2y ago
    Exactly! Remember when Hamas was elected? In 2006, a year after Israel disengaged, removed all Israeli settlements, gave up control of Gaza-Egypt border. Gaza elects Hamas, whose charter (at least then, 2017 version is toned down) is openly antisemitic, talks about jihad, killing Jews, protocols of elder Zion and Palestine from the river to the sea. Giving terrorists more power as they actively talking about killing civilians is insane, however bad you feel for Palestinians. That's why the first step is the removal of Hamas, whatever the next steps are.
    - z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
      Israel gave up nothing and to say Hamas was "elected" is a hilarious twist of facts. > Giving terrorists more power as they actively talking about killing civilians is insane Funny, because that's exactly what Israelis are doing.
edanm 2y ago
How, exactly? Israel was in negotiations with the official representative of the Palestinians, the PA, and they refused all offers and walked away from the negotiations. The opposite approach happened in Gaza - Israel just unilaterally walked away. They then elected Hamas, who is bent on Israel's destruction, and who proceeded to wage war on Israel for twenty years, culminating in the October 7th attacks. What now? Edit: I'm not saying I agree with your framing of the question.
- defrost 2y ago
  There is problematic framing all around this issue. eg: As I recall 20 odd years ago perhaps 40% of the eligable voters cast in favour of a Hamas who explicitly ran on a platform of seeking peace with Israel and were considered at the time to be more moderate than the alternatives. Today almost no one who voted for that Hamas of long long ago is still alive which undermines all arguments of the form "well, they voted for them".
  - edanm 2y ago
    First of all, the way "well, they voted for them" is sometimes used is morally repugnant. It's true that Hamas is the current elected government and military of Gaza, with all that implies, but that says nothing morally about the duty to not target civilians (and the duty to protect them). That all said I think you're wrong about the history here. Hamas was always very anti Israel, they specifically stem from an islamist tradition which consideres all of Israel to be occupied territory and that all Jews must be removed. They are one of the big factors in destroying the Peace process by launching many terror attacks to destroy it.
  - martin8412 2y ago
    https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp The Hamas founding charter calls for the eradication of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish race, worldwide.
    - aguaviva 2y ago

by _yb2s 2y ago

AnimalMuppet 2y ago

[flagged]

text0404 2y ago
[flagged]
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  What the fuck you talking about, democratically elected Hamas has "the complete destruction of Israel" as their official policy, and polls show that only after being bombed to oblivion most Palestinians started to think that Oct 7 might've been a bad move. It's clear to me that Palestinians do not accept peace as a practical solution. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-poll-finds-big-drop-support-oct-7-attack-2024-09-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-poll-f...
  - throw310822 2y ago
    The platform of the democratically elected Likud states the same: "between the Jordan and the sea there will be only israeli sovereignty". https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... Does this authorise Hamas to go there and raze the entire country to the ground? Please let me know.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      > Does this authorise Hamas to go there and raze the entire country to the ground? Please let me know. Pretty much yes according to too many liberal professors in ivy league universities. I think human lives on both sides are quite cheap to them.
      - throw310822 2y ago
        I would like to know the names of these professors and their respective quotes. I suspect that they don't really exist but are just a convenient excuse to paint the perpetrators as victims. Besides this, even if Hamas and Likud are identical in the intentions, only one side is illegally occupying and annexing the other's territory, and almost all deaths and destruction are on the other side. The situation on the ground matters- people who are oppressed have a right to defend themselves, and this comes before any stated intention.
        anal_reactor 2y ago
        > Besides this, even if Hamas and Likud are identical in the intentions In most juridical systems, it's the intent that matters.
- bufferoverflow 2y ago
  Israel hasn't been an occupying force. They left Gaza in 2005. Palestinians decided to spend their time preparing for terrorist attacks against Israel.
  - throw310822 2y ago
    If they left Gaza in 2005, how come that that they always controlled water, electricity, movement of people, air space, sea space, and all resources access? The international community regarded Gaza as always under occupation. You can have your own (unqualified) opinions about this; that judgement is a fact.
    - bufferoverflow 2y ago
      You mean they supplied water and electricity to Gaza, even though they didn't have to.
  - maeil 2y ago
    Palestine doesn't just consist of Gaza, doing so is playing a bad faith word trick. I can't imagine you're unfamiliar with the continuous annexations and illegal settlements in the West Bank, along with the continuous razing of Palestinian buildings there. If not, you're one of today's lucky 10,000. Here's a basic introduction [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > Israel hasn't been an occupying force. Israel has indisputably been an occupying force in Palestine continuously since 1967, at the latest. > They left Gaza in 2005. They did not stop exerting control of Gaza at any point, continuing to regularly murder unarmed civilians within Gaza, without provocation, control its waters, and otherwise exercise dominion even after their tactical redeployment. Not that even if they had withdrawn from that part of Palestine it would change that they were occupying Palestine.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Israel hasn't been an occupying force. They left Gaza in 2005. That's the narrative that the State of Israel promotes. But as with many things it says, it is wildly disconnected from reality. Israel never fully "left" Gaza. It pulled its settlements and internal troop deployments, but still maintained control of the Strip's borders, martime access and air space. And continued to bomb and invade sporadically ("mowing the lawn"), according its whimsy and pleasure. That's why it still considered to be under Israeli occupation according to UN statutes. Palestinians decided to spend their time preparing for terrorist attacks against Israel. Some did, the vast majority did not but were retaliated against anyway.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  > as they said: "They could stop persecuting and murdering Palestinians, stop occupying Palestine, and agree to either a one state or two state solution that recognizes Palestinians as human beings with a right to live." There's really barely any evidence Hamas would agree to a 2 state solution. The overwhelming evidence is it won't agree to it. Same for one state solution - Hamas would of course agree to cancel the state of Israel (thus creating something you could call a one state, slowly or quickly driving the Jews away) but definitely not to any kind of shared power democracy. To truly appease Hamas Israel needs to commit national suicide. That's quite a big ask for a people as persecuted as the Jews.
  - SauciestGNU 2y ago
    I don't want to pick on you because I think you raise reasonable points, but I see frequently the notion that if you have a one state solution, the Arab majority would treat the Israel minority in the way that the Israelis have been treating the Arab. I think this is spurious, we have no indication that this would actually be the case. I believe that this isn't a religious conflict and that an the to apartheid and occupation could actually bring peace. But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      > But it bothers me that people see the Arab Palestinian population as one incapable of accepting peace and driven by revenge or antisemitism What do you think drives the Palestinian movement and what are its main goals? If it was simply to get their own state surely they could have achieved it by now (as far back as in 1947). So there seems to be much more going on than simply attaining statehood - there is a very strong irredentist force among Palestinians that wants to go back to the way things were 80 or a 100 years ago. Which means returning to their original homes (I don't see how you could do that without throwing out the Jewish 'colonists'). To me that does seem to be motivated at least partly by revenge. As for antisemitism among Palestinians, it's there and widely documented (you could come up with good reasons why it's there, but denying it's there is wrong).

ghusto 2y ago

[flagged]

_yb2s 2y ago

I'm very disappointed in people flagging everyone that disagrees with me. What is the point of even coming on here if you won't have a discussion with people you disagree with, but want to censor their ability to participate? Echo chambers are useless for everyone.

bradlys 2y ago
[flagged]
- _yb2s 2y ago
  It seems to be the other way around- only the pro-Palestinian posts are being allowed and the other side is being flagged and downvoted. Despite my comments being on the side that isn't being silenced, it seems very much against HN ethos to silence any side of a discussion when the people are discussing in good faith, as seems to be the case.
- amritananda 2y ago
  Even more concerning is the Israeli tech industry's role. For example, this is what is said in a Hebrew article about Bright Data (formerly Luminati), which AFAIK owns one of the largest (legal) pools of residential IP addresses and is demonstrably capable of making a massive amount of fake social media accounts for the purposes of scraping at scale (translated by Claude): >The Israeli company Bright Data developed the TrendTrack system for promoting social intervention in support of Israel, providing tools to identify, report, and respond to posts gaining traction on social media. As a company specializing in global collection of public information from the internet, Bright Data has extensive infrastructure and public data collection capabilities. Based on these, they rapidly created massive databases that form the foundation for the new system, which aims to assist Israeli advocacy efforts during this difficult time. Interestingly the same company also helps in investigation of state-sponsored influencing campaigns of Western adversaries (China, Russia, and Iran).

EvgeniyZh 2y ago

While all of these should be done (well not the one-state solution, but nobody really considering it anyway), how do you think it will stop the terrorist attacks?

_yb2s 2y ago
I'm assuming that the average Palestinian feels persecuted, and is willing to support Hamas as the only group they see actively trying to do something about that, even if they don't love Hamas's methods. This support would evaporate quickly if they felt they were being treated like human beings. If I were Palestinian and terrified for my family, I could see actively donating to and supporting Hamas, while also absolutely hating them and their methods, and longing for some other option.
- okokhacker 2y ago
  How can they hate their methods if far worse methods are being used against them? Besides, do you think someone in a war zone has the capability to support, or better yet, donate to a militant group when they’re on the brink of starving?
- EvgeniyZh 2y ago
  Exactly! Remember when Hamas was elected? In 2006, a year after Israel disengaged, removed all Israeli settlements, gave up control of Gaza-Egypt border. Gaza elects Hamas, whose charter (at least then, 2017 version is toned down) is openly antisemitic, talks about jihad, killing Jews, protocols of elder Zion and Palestine from the river to the sea. Giving terrorists more power as they actively talking about killing civilians is insane, however bad you feel for Palestinians. That's why the first step is the removal of Hamas, whatever the next steps are.
  - z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
    Israel gave up nothing and to say Hamas was "elected" is a hilarious twist of facts. > Giving terrorists more power as they actively talking about killing civilians is insane Funny, because that's exactly what Israelis are doing.

edanm 2y ago

How, exactly? Israel was in negotiations with the official representative of the Palestinians, the PA, and they refused all offers and walked away from the negotiations. The opposite approach happened in Gaza - Israel just unilaterally walked away. They then elected Hamas, who is bent on Israel's destruction, and who proceeded to wage war on Israel for twenty years, culminating in the October 7th attacks. What now? Edit: I'm not saying I agree with your framing of the question.

defrost 2y ago
There is problematic framing all around this issue. eg: As I recall 20 odd years ago perhaps 40% of the eligable voters cast in favour of a Hamas who explicitly ran on a platform of seeking peace with Israel and were considered at the time to be more moderate than the alternatives. Today almost no one who voted for that Hamas of long long ago is still alive which undermines all arguments of the form "well, they voted for them".
- edanm 2y ago
  First of all, the way "well, they voted for them" is sometimes used is morally repugnant. It's true that Hamas is the current elected government and military of Gaza, with all that implies, but that says nothing morally about the duty to not target civilians (and the duty to protect them). That all said I think you're wrong about the history here. Hamas was always very anti Israel, they specifically stem from an islamist tradition which consideres all of Israel to be occupied territory and that all Jews must be removed. They are one of the big factors in destroying the Peace process by launching many terror attacks to destroy it.
- martin8412 2y ago
  https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp The Hamas founding charter calls for the eradication of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish race, worldwide.
  - aguaviva 2y ago