4 ms·

How does this compare to other wars?

by hirvi74 2y ago

throw310822 2y ago
[flagged]
- weatherlite 2y ago
  There are no Israeli casualties ? wtf are you on about. There are enough Israeli casualties to completely shake a country to its core. Forget all the dead from the Hamas massacre of October 7th, Israel has 12k+ wounded soldiers. That's an enormous amount for such a small country. It still has around 100k internal refugees. Yes it's way way less than what Gaza has experienced but at the same time - correcting for population - it's so much worse than 9/11. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through.
  - throw310822 2y ago
    I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Besides this, the number of Israeli casualties in the Gaza invasion amount to a few hundred soldiers while the Palestinians ones are two orders of magnitude higher, and most of them civilians. If you have more precise data plase share.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      > I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Why wouldn't I want to ? I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well.
      - throw310822 2y ago
        I think comparing what Israel is going through with the destruction of Gaza- which is comparable to that of Dresden or Warsaw, a wasteland of ruins, starving people, corpses and amputated civilians- is, well, obscene.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        Gaza is suffering much more - I never tried to say otherwise. I'm not sure what the point of this argument is anymore to be honest. It seems you can't or won't admit that Israelis are suffering quite a bit for some reason even if it pales in comparison to Gaza.
        throw310822 2y ago
        The point is that this is not a war. It's a massacre in which an army is killing tens of thousands of civilians and razing an entire region to the ground, while itself is suffering minimal casualties.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        As I said , they're not minimal. What are you comparing it to exactly.
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        > I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well. Only in one of those places people are celebrating.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    There are no Israeli casualties? Precisely zero civilian casualties inside Israel proper since Oct 8th (due to the Hamas conflict) is what they apparently meant. There's no Western country ... These being the only ones whose populations are worth having empathy with. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through. Except Ukraine, which has had 100x displaced (in raw terms) or 25x per capita. And (since we need to divide by zero) infinitely civilians more actualy killed/wounded. There are also (assuming since 2000 so) these countries "Georgia" and "Armenia" you might have heard of. Feel free to run the numbers on those countries, and report back to us what you find. Again, restricting our attention to worthy "Western" societies. It seems you'll need to find another way to promote the "Israel's suffering is unique" narrative.
    - dash2 2y ago
      > These being the only ones whose populations are worth having empathy with.…It seems you'll need to find another way to promote the "Israel's suffering is unique" narrative. HN norms are to assume the best interpretation of your collocutor. This isn’t doing that.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Then you should assume the best interpretation of my intent, as well. The commenter was really quite clueless when they said "No Western country in recent times has gone through something even remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through." To the point that we're forced to ask ourselves if it's even possible for someone be that clueless. It's also difficult to read that statement other than as suggesting that there must be something awfully special about what Israel is going through. Especially when suffering literally 30x-100x greater (depending on your choice of metric), also ethnically targeted, has been happening right there in the same time zone, just a few notches up (and in a thoroughly Western country which Israel has extensive cultural and ancestral ties with). It's not like it hasn't been in the news. And nevermind the suffering that has been happening in countries right next to Israel. Because they aren't Western and so don't matter. The mind simply boggles.
- 486sx33 2y ago
  Really? What about all the dead hostages ?
  - throw310822 2y ago
    [flagged]
- p3rls 2y ago
  If only there was something you could do when you're losing a war that you started... Mmmm. Is there a customer support number for Jihadists they could try?
  - GordonS 2y ago
    As I'm sure you must know, Hamas are not Jihadists. Though even if they were, it would not justify US-backed Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people.
    - p3rls 2y ago
      It completely justifies it as it justified the expulsion of sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after WW2 (btw the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany on that one, great track record). Read the Melian dialogue for more information. As for your internationalist fixation of pedantry for the determination of Jihadist, I'll just say thankfully Hamas has been thwarted in its ambitions and doesn't even have the means to create a tiny baby caliphate. RIP you'll be missed.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        It is by no means agreed that the violent ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslavaka, Poland and other areas after WW2 was justified. You're just assuming it is and that everyone agrees with you on this. Most bizarrely, as a way of explaining/minimizing ethnic cleansing taking place in the current time. BTW the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany Some of their non-elected leadership did, but the Palestinians as a people did not. Meanwhile, a certain very famous organization that was instrumental to Israel's founding (and which would go on to provide one of the country's more famous Prime Ministers) twice attempted to form an alliance with Nazi Germany, going so far as to propose a Jewish State based on "nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance". When it wasn't busy assassinating British and UN leaders, taking part in Deir Yassin and other massacres, etc.
bhouston 2y ago
Wikipedia says this about WWII: "Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=Deaths%20directly%20caused%20by%20the,deaths%20totaled%2050–55%20million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:tex.... We should expect similar numbers for Gaza in terms of additional indirect deaths. But the current numbers for Gaza still are an undercount of direct deaths.
- randunel 2y ago
  WW2 was often at equilibrium. The bombing of Gaza is pretty one sided. A comparison might be better with other one sided conflicts.
  - addicted 2y ago
    A good comparable is Russia’s attack on Grozny. 5000-8000 dead in a city with a population of about 200,000.
    - jiggawatts 2y ago
      The population of Gaza is about two million so the proportional death toll would be in the 50K-80K range. In other words, not out of the norm for this type of warfare.
- belorn 2y ago
  A better (and more recent) conflict would be US war on terror, with a death count around 400 thousands to 6 millions. The numbers varies extremely. The US military claims that only a total of 20 civilians has died to drone strikes. At the other extreme, others has estimated that 10 civilians has died per killed military which would represent a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 10:1. In iraq, the Iraq Body Count project estimate a civilian casualty rate of 77%, which is quite similar to the 68% and 83% estimated given by B'Tselem and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. It should be mentioned that genocide is not defined by number of deaths or civilian casualty rate, but instead about the intention. US killing people with drones, even if the wast majority is civilians and committed for poor reasons, are not considered genocide. If that is fair or not is up to debate.
4gotunameagain 2y ago
It is for sure much more lopsided than other wars, as the Israeli deaths have been minimal. Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war.
- taskforcegemini 2y ago
  >Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war. Should Israel sacrifice more of its own people for the war to appear more fair? It's not like their adversaries aren't/weren't trying..
randomcarbloke 2y ago
it actually ranks quite reasonably for civilian casualties even if we believe the Hamas figures (which we shouldn't), it's clear Israel are doing their best to minimize civvy losses.
- z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
  Is that a sick joke?
maeil 2y ago
> Key findings > By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include: > At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014. In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe. > Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars. > Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed. > On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars. Seems like a neutral source that documents all conflicts focusing on the casualties.
- coryfklein 2y ago
  We are pretty early in the 21st century. Would probably be rather different results if the 20th century was included.
  - pas 2y ago
    One one hand, indeed, we're approximately at "one quarterth" of the century. On the other a high-tech well-funded professional combined-arms military with total air supremacy in complete control of the perimeter is ought to be capable of being more careful. And maybe it is, just wasn't feelin' it.
    - coryfklein 2y ago
      Well that. But also geurilla warfare against non-uniformed combatants that use public infrastructure for military purposes has inherently higher civilian casualties. It's not going to be all one thing or another.
Paradigma11 2y ago
It looks pretty similar in magnitude to the siege of Grozny by the Russians.

How does this compare to other wars?

throw310822 2y ago

[flagged]

weatherlite 2y ago
There are no Israeli casualties ? wtf are you on about. There are enough Israeli casualties to completely shake a country to its core. Forget all the dead from the Hamas massacre of October 7th, Israel has 12k+ wounded soldiers. That's an enormous amount for such a small country. It still has around 100k internal refugees. Yes it's way way less than what Gaza has experienced but at the same time - correcting for population - it's so much worse than 9/11. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through.
- throw310822 2y ago
  I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Besides this, the number of Israeli casualties in the Gaza invasion amount to a few hundred soldiers while the Palestinians ones are two orders of magnitude higher, and most of them civilians. If you have more precise data plase share.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Why wouldn't I want to ? I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well.
    - throw310822 2y ago
      I think comparing what Israel is going through with the destruction of Gaza- which is comparable to that of Dresden or Warsaw, a wasteland of ruins, starving people, corpses and amputated civilians- is, well, obscene.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        Gaza is suffering much more - I never tried to say otherwise. I'm not sure what the point of this argument is anymore to be honest. It seems you can't or won't admit that Israelis are suffering quite a bit for some reason even if it pales in comparison to Gaza.
        throw310822 2y ago
        The point is that this is not a war. It's a massacre in which an army is killing tens of thousands of civilians and razing an entire region to the ground, while itself is suffering minimal casualties.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        As I said , they're not minimal. What are you comparing it to exactly.
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      > I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well. Only in one of those places people are celebrating.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  There are no Israeli casualties? Precisely zero civilian casualties inside Israel proper since Oct 8th (due to the Hamas conflict) is what they apparently meant. There's no Western country ... These being the only ones whose populations are worth having empathy with. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through. Except Ukraine, which has had 100x displaced (in raw terms) or 25x per capita. And (since we need to divide by zero) infinitely civilians more actualy killed/wounded. There are also (assuming since 2000 so) these countries "Georgia" and "Armenia" you might have heard of. Feel free to run the numbers on those countries, and report back to us what you find. Again, restricting our attention to worthy "Western" societies. It seems you'll need to find another way to promote the "Israel's suffering is unique" narrative.
  - dash2 2y ago
    > These being the only ones whose populations are worth having empathy with.…It seems you'll need to find another way to promote the "Israel's suffering is unique" narrative. HN norms are to assume the best interpretation of your collocutor. This isn’t doing that.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Then you should assume the best interpretation of my intent, as well. The commenter was really quite clueless when they said "No Western country in recent times has gone through something even remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through." To the point that we're forced to ask ourselves if it's even possible for someone be that clueless. It's also difficult to read that statement other than as suggesting that there must be something awfully special about what Israel is going through. Especially when suffering literally 30x-100x greater (depending on your choice of metric), also ethnically targeted, has been happening right there in the same time zone, just a few notches up (and in a thoroughly Western country which Israel has extensive cultural and ancestral ties with). It's not like it hasn't been in the news. And nevermind the suffering that has been happening in countries right next to Israel. Because they aren't Western and so don't matter. The mind simply boggles.
486sx33 2y ago
Really? What about all the dead hostages ?
- throw310822 2y ago
  [flagged]
p3rls 2y ago
If only there was something you could do when you're losing a war that you started... Mmmm. Is there a customer support number for Jihadists they could try?
- GordonS 2y ago
  As I'm sure you must know, Hamas are not Jihadists. Though even if they were, it would not justify US-backed Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people.
  - p3rls 2y ago
    It completely justifies it as it justified the expulsion of sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after WW2 (btw the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany on that one, great track record). Read the Melian dialogue for more information. As for your internationalist fixation of pedantry for the determination of Jihadist, I'll just say thankfully Hamas has been thwarted in its ambitions and doesn't even have the means to create a tiny baby caliphate. RIP you'll be missed.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      It is by no means agreed that the violent ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslavaka, Poland and other areas after WW2 was justified. You're just assuming it is and that everyone agrees with you on this. Most bizarrely, as a way of explaining/minimizing ethnic cleansing taking place in the current time. BTW the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany Some of their non-elected leadership did, but the Palestinians as a people did not. Meanwhile, a certain very famous organization that was instrumental to Israel's founding (and which would go on to provide one of the country's more famous Prime Ministers) twice attempted to form an alliance with Nazi Germany, going so far as to propose a Jewish State based on "nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance". When it wasn't busy assassinating British and UN leaders, taking part in Deir Yassin and other massacres, etc.

bhouston 2y ago

Wikipedia says this about WWII: "Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=Deaths%20directly%20caused%20by%20the,deaths%20totaled%2050–55%20million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:tex.... We should expect similar numbers for Gaza in terms of additional indirect deaths. But the current numbers for Gaza still are an undercount of direct deaths.

randunel 2y ago
WW2 was often at equilibrium. The bombing of Gaza is pretty one sided. A comparison might be better with other one sided conflicts.
- addicted 2y ago
  A good comparable is Russia’s attack on Grozny. 5000-8000 dead in a city with a population of about 200,000.
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    The population of Gaza is about two million so the proportional death toll would be in the 50K-80K range. In other words, not out of the norm for this type of warfare.
belorn 2y ago
A better (and more recent) conflict would be US war on terror, with a death count around 400 thousands to 6 millions. The numbers varies extremely. The US military claims that only a total of 20 civilians has died to drone strikes. At the other extreme, others has estimated that 10 civilians has died per killed military which would represent a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 10:1. In iraq, the Iraq Body Count project estimate a civilian casualty rate of 77%, which is quite similar to the 68% and 83% estimated given by B'Tselem and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. It should be mentioned that genocide is not defined by number of deaths or civilian casualty rate, but instead about the intention. US killing people with drones, even if the wast majority is civilians and committed for poor reasons, are not considered genocide. If that is fair or not is up to debate.

4gotunameagain 2y ago

It is for sure much more lopsided than other wars, as the Israeli deaths have been minimal. Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war.

taskforcegemini 2y ago
>Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war. Should Israel sacrifice more of its own people for the war to appear more fair? It's not like their adversaries aren't/weren't trying..

randomcarbloke 2y ago

it actually ranks quite reasonably for civilian casualties even if we believe the Hamas figures (which we shouldn't), it's clear Israel are doing their best to minimize civvy losses.

z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
Is that a sick joke?

maeil 2y ago

> Key findings > By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include: > At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014. In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe. > Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars. > Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed. > On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars. Seems like a neutral source that documents all conflicts focusing on the casualties.

coryfklein 2y ago
We are pretty early in the 21st century. Would probably be rather different results if the 20th century was included.
- pas 2y ago
  One one hand, indeed, we're approximately at "one quarterth" of the century. On the other a high-tech well-funded professional combined-arms military with total air supremacy in complete control of the perimeter is ought to be capable of being more careful. And maybe it is, just wasn't feelin' it.
  - coryfklein 2y ago
    Well that. But also geurilla warfare against non-uniformed combatants that use public infrastructure for military purposes has inherently higher civilian casualties. It's not going to be all one thing or another.

Paradigma11 2y ago

It looks pretty similar in magnitude to the siege of Grozny by the Russians.