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Related, interesting: > https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after-satellite-images/ https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-a

Related, interesting: > https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after-satellite-images/ https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/gaza-before-after... > https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/gaza-is-in-ruins-after-israels-yearlong-offensive-rebuilding-may-take-decades/ https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/gaza-is-i... The strip is bombed out and half in ruins. With the import of construction material into Gaza highly restricted, I wonder how, or if, it'll be rebuilt. It is becoming a true open-air wasteland prison, barely capable of supporting life. So it's hard to dispute the conclusion drawn by Doctors Without Borders, even if the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter.

bhouston 2y ago
> the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter. It is pretty clear that the death counts from Gaza are widely inaccurate and incomplete. They are only counting dead if they are brought to the hospitals and then buried. But Israel is bringing down building after building with people in them that are never recovered. And then secondary deaths caused by lack of health facilities are not being counted as dead directly as a result of the conflict, but are definitely caused by it.
- hirvi74 2y ago
  How does this compare to other wars?
  - throw310822 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      There are no Israeli casualties ? wtf are you on about. There are enough Israeli casualties to completely shake a country to its core. Forget all the dead from the Hamas massacre of October 7th, Israel has 12k+ wounded soldiers. That's an enormous amount for such a small country. It still has around 100k internal refugees. Yes it's way way less than what Gaza has experienced but at the same time - correcting for population - it's so much worse than 9/11. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through.
      - throw310822 2y ago
        I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Besides this, the number of Israeli casualties in the Gaza invasion amount to a few hundred soldiers while the Palestinians ones are two orders of magnitude higher, and most of them civilians. If you have more precise data plase share.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        > I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Why wouldn't I want to ? I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well.
        throw310822 2y ago
        I think comparing what Israel is going through with the destruction of Gaza- which is comparable to that of Dresden or Warsaw, a wasteland of ruins, starving people, corpses and amputated civilians- is, well, obscene.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        Gaza is suffering much more - I never tried to say otherwise. I'm not sure what the point of this argument is anymore to be honest. It seems you can't or won't admit that Israelis are suffering quite a bit for some reason even if it pales in comparison to Gaza.
        throw310822 2y ago
        The point is that this is not a war. It's a massacre in which an army is killing tens of thousands of civilians and razing an entire region to the ground, while itself is suffering minimal casualties.
    - 486sx33 2y ago
      Really? What about all the dead hostages ?
      - throw310822 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - p3rls 2y ago
      If only there was something you could do when you're losing a war that you started... Mmmm. Is there a customer support number for Jihadists they could try?
      - GordonS 2y ago
        As I'm sure you must know, Hamas are not Jihadists. Though even if they were, it would not justify US-backed Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people.
        p3rls 2y ago
        It completely justifies it as it justified the expulsion of sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after WW2 (btw the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany on that one, great track record). Read the Melian dialogue for more information. As for your internationalist fixation of pedantry for the determination of Jihadist, I'll just say thankfully Hamas has been thwarted in its ambitions and doesn't even have the means to create a tiny baby caliphate. RIP you'll be missed.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        It is by no means agreed that the violent ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslavaka, Poland and other areas after WW2 was justified. You're just assuming it is and that everyone agrees with you on this. Most bizarrely, as a way of explaining/minimizing ethnic cleansing taking place in the current time. BTW the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany Some of their non-elected leadership did, but the Palestinians as a people did not. Meanwhile, a certain very famous organization that was instrumental to Israel's founding (and which would go on to provide one of the country's more famous Prime Ministers) twice attempted to form an alliance with Nazi Germany, going so far as to propose a Jewish State based on "nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance". When it wasn't busy assassinating British and UN leaders, taking part in Deir Yassin and other massacres, etc.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    Wikipedia says this about WWII: "Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=Deaths%20directly%20caused%20by%20the,deaths%20totaled%2050–55%20million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:tex.... We should expect similar numbers for Gaza in terms of additional indirect deaths. But the current numbers for Gaza still are an undercount of direct deaths.
    - randunel 2y ago
      WW2 was often at equilibrium. The bombing of Gaza is pretty one sided. A comparison might be better with other one sided conflicts.
      - addicted 2y ago
        A good comparable is Russia’s attack on Grozny. 5000-8000 dead in a city with a population of about 200,000.
        jiggawatts 2y ago
        The population of Gaza is about two million so the proportional death toll would be in the 50K-80K range. In other words, not out of the norm for this type of warfare.
    - belorn 2y ago
      A better (and more recent) conflict would be US war on terror, with a death count around 400 thousands to 6 millions. The numbers varies extremely. The US military claims that only a total of 20 civilians has died to drone strikes. At the other extreme, others has estimated that 10 civilians has died per killed military which would represent a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 10:1. In iraq, the Iraq Body Count project estimate a civilian casualty rate of 77%, which is quite similar to the 68% and 83% estimated given by B'Tselem and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. It should be mentioned that genocide is not defined by number of deaths or civilian casualty rate, but instead about the intention. US killing people with drones, even if the wast majority is civilians and committed for poor reasons, are not considered genocide. If that is fair or not is up to debate.
  - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
    It is for sure much more lopsided than other wars, as the Israeli deaths have been minimal. Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war.
    - taskforcegemini 2y ago
      >Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war. Should Israel sacrifice more of its own people for the war to appear more fair? It's not like their adversaries aren't/weren't trying..
  - randomcarbloke 2y ago
    it actually ranks quite reasonably for civilian casualties even if we believe the Hamas figures (which we shouldn't), it's clear Israel are doing their best to minimize civvy losses.
    - z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
      Is that a sick joke?
  - maeil 2y ago
    > Key findings > By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include: > At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014. In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe. > Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars. > Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed. > On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars. Seems like a neutral source that documents all conflicts focusing on the casualties.
    - coryfklein 2y ago
      We are pretty early in the 21st century. Would probably be rather different results if the 20th century was included.
      - pas 2y ago
        One one hand, indeed, we're approximately at "one quarterth" of the century. On the other a high-tech well-funded professional combined-arms military with total air supremacy in complete control of the perimeter is ought to be capable of being more careful. And maybe it is, just wasn't feelin' it.
        coryfklein 2y ago
        Well that. But also geurilla warfare against non-uniformed combatants that use public infrastructure for military purposes has inherently higher civilian casualties. It's not going to be all one thing or another.
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    It looks pretty similar in magnitude to the siege of Grozny by the Russians.
- hintymad 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tdeck 2y ago
    It's beyond me how someone can believe you can carpet bomb a city where 2 million people live and kill fewer than 40,000 people. In fact, I don't find myself able to believe that people genuinely think that.
    - Purplehermann 2y ago
      Giving notice is helpful
      - notnaut 2y ago
        This is not a serious perspective.
        tdeck 2y ago
        Indeed https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/ https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/
    - mahkeiro 2y ago
      Israel dropped about 7x the equivalent of the Hiroshima bomb on Gaza, a small strip of land. This statistic alone is sufficient.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        I don't get what this statistic truly signify. between 90,000–166,000 people died in Hiroshima - almost all civilians naturally, while way fewer people died in Gaza - many civilians but also many Hamas people. I'm not denying a lot of bombing went on in Gaza but obviously it was way less lethal and way more surgical than what happened in Hirsohima, otherwise you can't really explain the death toll difference.
- dlubarov 2y ago
  This was true early in the war, but Gaza's health ministry has long since shifted to collecting reports of deaths from "reliable media sources". One source of data is a Google form which they set up in March. There are also reports claiming that GHM has counted natural deaths in their figures, which I don't think GHM has really denied (their releases don't say much about methodology). And of course they include militant deaths.
  - okokhacker 2y ago
    Are you trying to run damage control here or something? I’m not sure why the GHM is being centered in this thread rather than the people who have been killed. I agree with what bhouston said. With so much destruction and death happening (even right now), I suspect it will take very long to get an accurate count. The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent.
    - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
      > The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent. If you're referring to my comment, you misunderstood. It's not "more damaging" -- it's that the two are highly correlated, and that damage to infrastructure and shelter is indicative of the "war on noncombatants" nature of this conflict. We don't know how many deaths there are, but we can see with our own eyes how the entire territory is being rendered unfit for habitation.
      - okokhacker 2y ago
        Gotcha, sorry about that. Thanks for putting it in context. Some of the images of the landscape in Gaza are truly haunting
    - dlubarov 2y ago
      You agree with which part? Hopefully not the part about only counting hospital deaths, which was inaccurate (I'm sure it was an honest mistake). Not trying to minimize the suffering that's happening, but it's important to have our facts straight when genocide accusations are being tossed around.

bhouston 2y ago

> the deaths lag behind the damage to infrastructure and shelter. It is pretty clear that the death counts from Gaza are widely inaccurate and incomplete. They are only counting dead if they are brought to the hospitals and then buried. But Israel is bringing down building after building with people in them that are never recovered. And then secondary deaths caused by lack of health facilities are not being counted as dead directly as a result of the conflict, but are definitely caused by it.

hirvi74 2y ago
How does this compare to other wars?
- throw310822 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    There are no Israeli casualties ? wtf are you on about. There are enough Israeli casualties to completely shake a country to its core. Forget all the dead from the Hamas massacre of October 7th, Israel has 12k+ wounded soldiers. That's an enormous amount for such a small country. It still has around 100k internal refugees. Yes it's way way less than what Gaza has experienced but at the same time - correcting for population - it's so much worse than 9/11. There's no Western country in recent time that went through something event remotely similar to what Israel has gone and is going through.
    - throw310822 2y ago
      I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Besides this, the number of Israeli casualties in the Gaza invasion amount to a few hundred soldiers while the Palestinians ones are two orders of magnitude higher, and most of them civilians. If you have more precise data plase share.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        > I would leave aside all proportions and corrections for population: because otherwise you need to multiply by a factor between 2 and 4 the deaths and injuries in Gaza to compare them with those of Israel. You'd probably not want to. Why wouldn't I want to ? I'm not gonna deny for a moment what Gaza is going through isn't traumatic, of course it is. That's reality. And saying what Israel is going through is nothing is delusional as well.
        throw310822 2y ago
        I think comparing what Israel is going through with the destruction of Gaza- which is comparable to that of Dresden or Warsaw, a wasteland of ruins, starving people, corpses and amputated civilians- is, well, obscene.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        Gaza is suffering much more - I never tried to say otherwise. I'm not sure what the point of this argument is anymore to be honest. It seems you can't or won't admit that Israelis are suffering quite a bit for some reason even if it pales in comparison to Gaza.
        throw310822 2y ago
        The point is that this is not a war. It's a massacre in which an army is killing tens of thousands of civilians and razing an entire region to the ground, while itself is suffering minimal casualties.
  - 486sx33 2y ago
    Really? What about all the dead hostages ?
    - throw310822 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - p3rls 2y ago
    If only there was something you could do when you're losing a war that you started... Mmmm. Is there a customer support number for Jihadists they could try?
    - GordonS 2y ago
      As I'm sure you must know, Hamas are not Jihadists. Though even if they were, it would not justify US-backed Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people.
      - p3rls 2y ago
        It completely justifies it as it justified the expulsion of sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after WW2 (btw the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany on that one, great track record). Read the Melian dialogue for more information. As for your internationalist fixation of pedantry for the determination of Jihadist, I'll just say thankfully Hamas has been thwarted in its ambitions and doesn't even have the means to create a tiny baby caliphate. RIP you'll be missed.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        It is by no means agreed that the violent ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechoslavaka, Poland and other areas after WW2 was justified. You're just assuming it is and that everyone agrees with you on this. Most bizarrely, as a way of explaining/minimizing ethnic cleansing taking place in the current time. BTW the Palestinians allied with the Axis powers and Nazi Germany Some of their non-elected leadership did, but the Palestinians as a people did not. Meanwhile, a certain very famous organization that was instrumental to Israel's founding (and which would go on to provide one of the country's more famous Prime Ministers) twice attempted to form an alliance with Nazi Germany, going so far as to propose a Jewish State based on "nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance". When it wasn't busy assassinating British and UN leaders, taking part in Deir Yassin and other massacres, etc.
- bhouston 2y ago
  Wikipedia says this about WWII: "Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=Deaths%20directly%20caused%20by%20the,deaths%20totaled%2050–55%20million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:tex.... We should expect similar numbers for Gaza in terms of additional indirect deaths. But the current numbers for Gaza still are an undercount of direct deaths.
  - randunel 2y ago
    WW2 was often at equilibrium. The bombing of Gaza is pretty one sided. A comparison might be better with other one sided conflicts.
    - addicted 2y ago
      A good comparable is Russia’s attack on Grozny. 5000-8000 dead in a city with a population of about 200,000.
      - jiggawatts 2y ago
        The population of Gaza is about two million so the proportional death toll would be in the 50K-80K range. In other words, not out of the norm for this type of warfare.
  - belorn 2y ago
    A better (and more recent) conflict would be US war on terror, with a death count around 400 thousands to 6 millions. The numbers varies extremely. The US military claims that only a total of 20 civilians has died to drone strikes. At the other extreme, others has estimated that 10 civilians has died per killed military which would represent a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 10:1. In iraq, the Iraq Body Count project estimate a civilian casualty rate of 77%, which is quite similar to the 68% and 83% estimated given by B'Tselem and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. It should be mentioned that genocide is not defined by number of deaths or civilian casualty rate, but instead about the intention. US killing people with drones, even if the wast majority is civilians and committed for poor reasons, are not considered genocide. If that is fair or not is up to debate.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  It is for sure much more lopsided than other wars, as the Israeli deaths have been minimal. Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war.
  - taskforcegemini 2y ago
    >Which strengthens the argument for a genocide, not a war. Should Israel sacrifice more of its own people for the war to appear more fair? It's not like their adversaries aren't/weren't trying..
- randomcarbloke 2y ago
  it actually ranks quite reasonably for civilian casualties even if we believe the Hamas figures (which we shouldn't), it's clear Israel are doing their best to minimize civvy losses.
  - z3ncyberpunk 2y ago
    Is that a sick joke?
- maeil 2y ago
  > Key findings > By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include: > At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014. In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe. > Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars. > Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed. > On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars. Seems like a neutral source that documents all conflicts focusing on the casualties.
  - coryfklein 2y ago
    We are pretty early in the 21st century. Would probably be rather different results if the 20th century was included.
    - pas 2y ago
      One one hand, indeed, we're approximately at "one quarterth" of the century. On the other a high-tech well-funded professional combined-arms military with total air supremacy in complete control of the perimeter is ought to be capable of being more careful. And maybe it is, just wasn't feelin' it.
      - coryfklein 2y ago
        Well that. But also geurilla warfare against non-uniformed combatants that use public infrastructure for military purposes has inherently higher civilian casualties. It's not going to be all one thing or another.
- Paradigma11 2y ago
  It looks pretty similar in magnitude to the siege of Grozny by the Russians.
hintymad 2y ago
[flagged]
- tdeck 2y ago
  It's beyond me how someone can believe you can carpet bomb a city where 2 million people live and kill fewer than 40,000 people. In fact, I don't find myself able to believe that people genuinely think that.
  - Purplehermann 2y ago
    Giving notice is helpful
    - notnaut 2y ago
      This is not a serious perspective.
      - tdeck 2y ago
        Indeed https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/ https://gaza-patterns-harm.airwars.org/
  - mahkeiro 2y ago
    Israel dropped about 7x the equivalent of the Hiroshima bomb on Gaza, a small strip of land. This statistic alone is sufficient.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      I don't get what this statistic truly signify. between 90,000–166,000 people died in Hiroshima - almost all civilians naturally, while way fewer people died in Gaza - many civilians but also many Hamas people. I'm not denying a lot of bombing went on in Gaza but obviously it was way less lethal and way more surgical than what happened in Hirsohima, otherwise you can't really explain the death toll difference.
dlubarov 2y ago
This was true early in the war, but Gaza's health ministry has long since shifted to collecting reports of deaths from "reliable media sources". One source of data is a Google form which they set up in March. There are also reports claiming that GHM has counted natural deaths in their figures, which I don't think GHM has really denied (their releases don't say much about methodology). And of course they include militant deaths.
- okokhacker 2y ago
  Are you trying to run damage control here or something? I’m not sure why the GHM is being centered in this thread rather than the people who have been killed. I agree with what bhouston said. With so much destruction and death happening (even right now), I suspect it will take very long to get an accurate count. The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent.
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    > The original comment’s implication that infrastructure damage is somehow more damaging than the human death toll is abhorrent. If you're referring to my comment, you misunderstood. It's not "more damaging" -- it's that the two are highly correlated, and that damage to infrastructure and shelter is indicative of the "war on noncombatants" nature of this conflict. We don't know how many deaths there are, but we can see with our own eyes how the entire territory is being rendered unfit for habitation.
    - okokhacker 2y ago
      Gotcha, sorry about that. Thanks for putting it in context. Some of the images of the landscape in Gaza are truly haunting
  - dlubarov 2y ago
    You agree with which part? Hopefully not the part about only counting hospital deaths, which was inaccurate (I'm sure it was an honest mistake). Not trying to minimize the suffering that's happening, but it's important to have our facts straight when genocide accusations are being tossed around.