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Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases. Of course, I get it from Apple's pers

Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases. Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others. However, that precludes it from being used for theft tracking. For example, I use an AirTag on my bicycle. If someone steals the bicycle, they are literally informed "an air tag is following you" https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 There are a lot of things I'd love to put long-term AirTags on (luggage, snow-blower, childrens' backpacks) but if theft isnt really deterred, then the case for a bulkier AirTag is quite reduced.

unsupp0rted 2y ago
Theft-tracking is sort of an "off-label" use for AirTags, from Apple's perspective. They'd rather make AirTags less generally useful than make them both more generally useful + open to stalking occurrences and lawsuits.
- TuringNYC 2y ago
  Agreed on the trade-off. And there are some absolutely 1000% winning use cases (lost cats, lost dogs, lost luggage). However, lets look at the constraints and outcomes: - Me or other people need to be around (since airtags jump off others' devices) This removes use cases like tracking lost marine goods, tracking lost drones, etc. - Item being tracked has to be big enough to be worth the extra size/weight of the long life battery wrapper This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc. - Item being tracked has to be something you actually lose w/o wrongdoing. Makes sense for backpacks, purses, parked cars. But, most capital equipment wouldnt be "lost" it would be stolen, so that is out. https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/20-surprisingly-practical-uses-for-apple-airtags-0384571/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/20-surprisingly-practical...
  - theultdev 2y ago
    > This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc. I use an airtag for my wallet and apple remote. https://ridge.com/products/carbon-case-for-airtag https://ridge.com/products/carbon-case-for-airtag https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G4PT3NJ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G4PT3NJ
    - Diti 2y ago
      For 10 USD more than the carbon case, I prefer using the following item for my wallet. https://nomadgoods.com/products/tracking-card https://nomadgoods.com/products/tracking-card
      - theultdev 2y ago
        My wallet is rfid blocking, that wouldn't work. Plus one less card space in it, even if it did work.
    - TuringNYC 2y ago
      Were talking about the extended battery case, are you saying you put this giant thing in your wallet and on your remotes?! https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/introducing-timecapsule https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/introducing-timecaps...
      - theultdev 2y ago
        Yes, I clearly linked containers that aren't the device in question. I don't see the need for the extended battery case in those use-cases. I also don't see my cat wearing that thing either. Maybe a large dog. But things like wallets, remotes, cats, dogs, are usually in your possession frequently and only lost for short periods of time before you notice. Luggage would be a good use case, and possibly bikes and other large equipment. But I would opt for something more discreet vs a larger battery.
- yonatan8070 2y ago
  I don't understand why AirTags being used for stalking would open Apple to lawsuits. If I buy a hammer and use it to attack someone, the manufacturer of the hammer isn't open to a lawsuit. Of course I'm not saying Apple shouldn't try to protect people from stalkers using their control over their products, I just don't see why it would make Appld responsible if someone misused their products.
  - TuringNYC 2y ago
    IANAL but the hammer doesnt include an ongoing service, but the AirTag is facilitated with a constant service from the manufacturer.
    - unsupp0rted 2y ago
      Also AirTags are meant for tracking personal possessions. Hammers aren't meant for murder. Murder is an off-label use of hammers. If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people.
      - franga2000 2y ago
        > If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people. What?? That's like by not including a sound device that screams "look out, you're being murdered!" on every hammer when it's swung, manufacturers are saying their hammers are also intended for murder. Now that Apple has this feature, sure, removing it might raise some eyebrows, but the theft tracking use-case is so obvious and useful that no judge would ever believe that Apple did this specifically to enable stalking.
  - 0xffff2 2y ago
    Conversely, people have been suing gun manufacturers after shootings basically forever.
    - jjeaff 2y ago
- giarc 2y ago
  I bet it's less about lawsuits and more about reputational harm if every week there is a news story about a murder facilitated by an AirTag.
dervjd 2y ago
Any tracker can be turned off if a thief manages to find it - but yeah a notification letting them know they need to look isn’t great. I use an AirTag on my e-bike - there’s quite a few hidden mounts out there that look like normal rear reflectors or slot in between a water bottle cage and the bike frame. It’s also trivially easy to pop the AirTag open and remove the speaker so it can’t beep. I bought my AirTags before there were any compatible third party options, but the non-Apple AirTags don’t have the UWB chip inside and don’t support the precision finding feature which would also make them more difficult to find.
- nielsbot 2y ago
  It’s not just the beeping. The potential thief’s iPhone will also notify them they’re being tracked.
  - MikeRichardson 2y ago
    I wonder a 3rd party tracker (using Find My network) could fool the iPhone somehow. Maybe if it does 1 minute on, 1 minute off, or something like that?
csomar 2y ago
> Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases. Isn't that too late? If you disabled that AirTag with your phone, you are probably the thief. Now we got you fully I.D.ed. It seems that the safest bet, for a thief/criminal, is to not take any iPhone (or phone) on him while committing the crime.
- TuringNYC 2y ago
  Thanks for this - I never thought that the act of disabling would create a record, but that makes sense! I wonder if that is something law enforcement can track and act on.
  - electroly 2y ago
    There is no feature that allows the thief to disable the AirTag at all. In the notification for "an AirTag is following you" the link for disabling the AirTag is simply instructions for removing the battery. It's up to the thief to find the AirTag using the audio ping (which, as mentioned elsewhere, you can deactivate by disconnecting the speaker) and their human eyeballs. Go back to the page you linked -- https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 -- the bottom of this page has a screenshot of those instructions.
l8rlump 2y ago
https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack/?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack/?tab=readme-ov-fi... These won’t inform, I believe.
eek2121 2y ago
They aren’t meant for finding stolen stuff, rather, lost stuff. Also, thieves are dumb.
ValentineC 2y ago
> Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases. > Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others. I'm also not a fan of having to go back to Apple and pay a fee for "battery service", when the current fix is a CR2032 battery that's under $1.

unsupp0rted 2y ago

Theft-tracking is sort of an "off-label" use for AirTags, from Apple's perspective. They'd rather make AirTags less generally useful than make them both more generally useful + open to stalking occurrences and lawsuits.

TuringNYC 2y ago
Agreed on the trade-off. And there are some absolutely 1000% winning use cases (lost cats, lost dogs, lost luggage). However, lets look at the constraints and outcomes: - Me or other people need to be around (since airtags jump off others' devices) This removes use cases like tracking lost marine goods, tracking lost drones, etc. - Item being tracked has to be big enough to be worth the extra size/weight of the long life battery wrapper This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc. - Item being tracked has to be something you actually lose w/o wrongdoing. Makes sense for backpacks, purses, parked cars. But, most capital equipment wouldnt be "lost" it would be stolen, so that is out. https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/20-surprisingly-practical-uses-for-apple-airtags-0384571/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/20-surprisingly-practical...
- theultdev 2y ago
  > This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc. I use an airtag for my wallet and apple remote. https://ridge.com/products/carbon-case-for-airtag https://ridge.com/products/carbon-case-for-airtag https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G4PT3NJ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G4PT3NJ
  - Diti 2y ago
    For 10 USD more than the carbon case, I prefer using the following item for my wallet. https://nomadgoods.com/products/tracking-card https://nomadgoods.com/products/tracking-card
    - theultdev 2y ago
      My wallet is rfid blocking, that wouldn't work. Plus one less card space in it, even if it did work.
  - TuringNYC 2y ago
    Were talking about the extended battery case, are you saying you put this giant thing in your wallet and on your remotes?! https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/introducing-timecapsule https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/introducing-timecaps...
    - theultdev 2y ago
      Yes, I clearly linked containers that aren't the device in question. I don't see the need for the extended battery case in those use-cases. I also don't see my cat wearing that thing either. Maybe a large dog. But things like wallets, remotes, cats, dogs, are usually in your possession frequently and only lost for short periods of time before you notice. Luggage would be a good use case, and possibly bikes and other large equipment. But I would opt for something more discreet vs a larger battery.
yonatan8070 2y ago
I don't understand why AirTags being used for stalking would open Apple to lawsuits. If I buy a hammer and use it to attack someone, the manufacturer of the hammer isn't open to a lawsuit. Of course I'm not saying Apple shouldn't try to protect people from stalkers using their control over their products, I just don't see why it would make Appld responsible if someone misused their products.
- TuringNYC 2y ago
  IANAL but the hammer doesnt include an ongoing service, but the AirTag is facilitated with a constant service from the manufacturer.
  - unsupp0rted 2y ago
    Also AirTags are meant for tracking personal possessions. Hammers aren't meant for murder. Murder is an off-label use of hammers. If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people.
    - franga2000 2y ago
      > If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people. What?? That's like by not including a sound device that screams "look out, you're being murdered!" on every hammer when it's swung, manufacturers are saying their hammers are also intended for murder. Now that Apple has this feature, sure, removing it might raise some eyebrows, but the theft tracking use-case is so obvious and useful that no judge would ever believe that Apple did this specifically to enable stalking.
- 0xffff2 2y ago
  Conversely, people have been suing gun manufacturers after shootings basically forever.
  - jjeaff 2y ago
giarc 2y ago
I bet it's less about lawsuits and more about reputational harm if every week there is a news story about a murder facilitated by an AirTag.

dervjd 2y ago

Any tracker can be turned off if a thief manages to find it - but yeah a notification letting them know they need to look isn’t great. I use an AirTag on my e-bike - there’s quite a few hidden mounts out there that look like normal rear reflectors or slot in between a water bottle cage and the bike frame. It’s also trivially easy to pop the AirTag open and remove the speaker so it can’t beep. I bought my AirTags before there were any compatible third party options, but the non-Apple AirTags don’t have the UWB chip inside and don’t support the precision finding feature which would also make them more difficult to find.

nielsbot 2y ago
It’s not just the beeping. The potential thief’s iPhone will also notify them they’re being tracked.
- MikeRichardson 2y ago
  I wonder a 3rd party tracker (using Find My network) could fool the iPhone somehow. Maybe if it does 1 minute on, 1 minute off, or something like that?

csomar 2y ago

> Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases. Isn't that too late? If you disabled that AirTag with your phone, you are probably the thief. Now we got you fully I.D.ed. It seems that the safest bet, for a thief/criminal, is to not take any iPhone (or phone) on him while committing the crime.

TuringNYC 2y ago
Thanks for this - I never thought that the act of disabling would create a record, but that makes sense! I wonder if that is something law enforcement can track and act on.
- electroly 2y ago
  There is no feature that allows the thief to disable the AirTag at all. In the notification for "an AirTag is following you" the link for disabling the AirTag is simply instructions for removing the battery. It's up to the thief to find the AirTag using the audio ping (which, as mentioned elsewhere, you can deactivate by disconnecting the speaker) and their human eyeballs. Go back to the page you linked -- https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 -- the bottom of this page has a screenshot of those instructions.

l8rlump 2y ago

https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack/?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack/?tab=readme-ov-fi... These won’t inform, I believe.

eek2121 2y ago

They aren’t meant for finding stolen stuff, rather, lost stuff. Also, thieves are dumb.

ValentineC 2y ago

> Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases. > Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others. I'm also not a fan of having to go back to Apple and pay a fee for "battery service", when the current fix is a CR2032 battery that's under $1.