25 ms·

Requiring an account to book a flight seems perfectly reasonable to me

croes 2y ago
I think the point is > New customers must also go through a verification process which, for many people, involves invasive biometrics.
- tyingq 2y ago
  And the hard-to-select second choice is: "or going to the check-in counter at the airport more than two hours before departure" https://noyb.eu/en/booking-ryanair-flight-through-online-travel-agent-might-hold-nasty-surprise https://noyb.eu/en/booking-ryanair-flight-through-online-tra...
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago
    No, that’s the second choice that noyb mentioned last year when announcing their complaint about the then-current version of Ryanair’s policy. In the new article which triggered this HN post, discussing Ryanair’s updated policy, the second option is sending Ryanair a handwritten signature and a copy of a government ID.
    - 77pt77 2y ago
      It's an airplane ticket. Not a house selling contract!
      - rwmj 2y ago
        The idea is to abide by the letter of the law, while making it far too inconvenient for anyone to actually do it. A bit like Apple and their iPhone battery replacement kits.
        77pt77 2y ago
        What about the apple battery kits?
        rwmj 2y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-service-iphone-repair-kit-hands-on https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi...
      - jkaplowitz 2y ago
        I agree it’s unjustified, yeah. I think even the old policy was inappropriate and this is far worse.
    - tyingq 2y ago
      Ah, arguably worse for many situations. Last minute bookings as one example.
  - Kwpolska 2y ago
    Going to the check-in counter at Ryanair costs "€/£55 (for flights from Spain €/£ 30)". https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/fees https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/fees
shever73 2y ago
Could you elaborate on why that seems reasonable to you? The airline will already have my passport and credit card details, home address and mobile number. In my opinion, it should be the user's choice whether they create an account or not.
- atlasduo 2y ago
  User account is an interface between a User and a system one interacts with. If you book a flight, a user is created - no way around that. So, what you essentially demand is to NOT provide you with a user interface to interact with the system. Instead, you would resort to interface through online/offline/phone support. Your demand boils down to having less options to do actions with the business. Options that already exist and come out of the box. Having an account is not as scary once you realize what it is and what it represents.
  - shever73 2y ago
    > So, what you essentially demand is to NOT provide you with a user interface to interact with the system. No, I’m requesting, or demanding if you prefer, the choice. An account is a user convenience, not a business necessity. I’m asking why it is reasonable to force customers to create an account to book a flight?
- madjam002 2y ago
  To me it seems reasonable because I’m already providing a lot of information to the airline, name, ID card, maybe even passport. If accounts are optional, this data is still being stored, probably against some kind of “shadow user” account, which ironically is more difficult to reason about or remember if you wanted to exercise your rights under the DPA.
ivan_gammel 2y ago
It certainly fails minimization criteria. To deliver the passenger to the destination an account is nice to have but not necessary. An airline only needs to identify the passenger, to make sure person on the ticket is the person on board. Verification of identity can be done in a non-persistent way, billing details may be left to the payment provider etc.
attendant3446 2y ago
It's bad UX at the very least. And technically you shouldn't need an account to make a booking.
grishka 2y ago
No. Most airlines allow you to manage your booking with your last name and PNR. Which is perfectly fine. You would usually only need an account for two things: the loyalty/miles program, and having your details autofilled next time you book.
- technothrasher 2y ago
  I remember the good old day when you could just walk up and buy a paper ticket, and that was all you needed to board the plane. They'd ask for your name, but you could give them any name, they didn't care. I realize that we're a long way from that world now, and we could never go back to it, but it sure was nice.
  - grishka 2y ago
    That's how train tickets still work in Europe, I was kinda surprised and impressed. They don't check IDs at all, you just show a QR code. In Russia where I'm from you need to show an ID to buy a long-distance train ticket and then again when you board the train. I was told that scalping was rampant before this was introduced which is totally believable. Which begs the question, how do European railway operators prevent it without requiring IDs?
    - lifestyleguru 2y ago
      I personally witnessed in Deutsche Bahn that passenger ticket was invalidated because he failed to show physical payment card he used to purchase the ticket online. That's why I started to buy physical tickets at the counter which is another kind of horror story.
      - grishka 2y ago
        Interesting. The only time I traveled on a Deutsche Bahn train, it was delayed 20 minutes, and they scanned my ticket off my laptop screen while I was already on the train, without saying a word :D
    - 2y ago
7bit 2y ago
Why? Thank God in Germany it is forbidden to requiring an account for online purchases and you can buy anything online without needing to register for an account first.
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Most merchants and service providers keep your shadow account after purchase anyway. If you are lawyery kind of person you can request deleting the shadow account by contacting them and giving away even more of your personal details.
  - madjam002 2y ago
    Exactly, an account has been created for you anyway and the merchant holds pretty much the same amount of data on you, so I think requiring an account is a good thing as then at least you know that a company holds all these records about you. To be clear for online purchases I think it's a nice convenience to be able to buy without requiring an account, but for flights it's an entirely different game, you often need to provide a lot more PII.
  - 7bit 2y ago
    That is not the point. Of course they have data about me. That requirement is dictated by tax law. I really don't care if the seller creates a shadow account or not, that's his problem. The point is that I'm not forced to create and manage an account and I can do a second purchase without having to remember or reset a password to an account that was forced upon me.

I think the point is > New customers must also go through a verification process which, for many people, involves invasive biometrics.

tyingq 2y ago
And the hard-to-select second choice is: "or going to the check-in counter at the airport more than two hours before departure" https://noyb.eu/en/booking-ryanair-flight-through-online-travel-agent-might-hold-nasty-surprise https://noyb.eu/en/booking-ryanair-flight-through-online-tra...
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  No, that’s the second choice that noyb mentioned last year when announcing their complaint about the then-current version of Ryanair’s policy. In the new article which triggered this HN post, discussing Ryanair’s updated policy, the second option is sending Ryanair a handwritten signature and a copy of a government ID.
  - 77pt77 2y ago
    It's an airplane ticket. Not a house selling contract!
    - rwmj 2y ago
      The idea is to abide by the letter of the law, while making it far too inconvenient for anyone to actually do it. A bit like Apple and their iPhone battery replacement kits.
      - 77pt77 2y ago
        What about the apple battery kits?
        rwmj 2y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-service-iphone-repair-kit-hands-on https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi...
    - jkaplowitz 2y ago
      I agree it’s unjustified, yeah. I think even the old policy was inappropriate and this is far worse.
  - tyingq 2y ago
    Ah, arguably worse for many situations. Last minute bookings as one example.
- Kwpolska 2y ago
  Going to the check-in counter at Ryanair costs "€/£55 (for flights from Spain €/£ 30)". https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/fees https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/fees

shever73 2y ago

Could you elaborate on why that seems reasonable to you? The airline will already have my passport and credit card details, home address and mobile number. In my opinion, it should be the user's choice whether they create an account or not.

atlasduo 2y ago
User account is an interface between a User and a system one interacts with. If you book a flight, a user is created - no way around that. So, what you essentially demand is to NOT provide you with a user interface to interact with the system. Instead, you would resort to interface through online/offline/phone support. Your demand boils down to having less options to do actions with the business. Options that already exist and come out of the box. Having an account is not as scary once you realize what it is and what it represents.
- shever73 2y ago
  > So, what you essentially demand is to NOT provide you with a user interface to interact with the system. No, I’m requesting, or demanding if you prefer, the choice. An account is a user convenience, not a business necessity. I’m asking why it is reasonable to force customers to create an account to book a flight?
madjam002 2y ago
To me it seems reasonable because I’m already providing a lot of information to the airline, name, ID card, maybe even passport. If accounts are optional, this data is still being stored, probably against some kind of “shadow user” account, which ironically is more difficult to reason about or remember if you wanted to exercise your rights under the DPA.

ivan_gammel 2y ago

It certainly fails minimization criteria. To deliver the passenger to the destination an account is nice to have but not necessary. An airline only needs to identify the passenger, to make sure person on the ticket is the person on board. Verification of identity can be done in a non-persistent way, billing details may be left to the payment provider etc.

attendant3446 2y ago

It's bad UX at the very least. And technically you shouldn't need an account to make a booking.

grishka 2y ago

No. Most airlines allow you to manage your booking with your last name and PNR. Which is perfectly fine. You would usually only need an account for two things: the loyalty/miles program, and having your details autofilled next time you book.

technothrasher 2y ago
I remember the good old day when you could just walk up and buy a paper ticket, and that was all you needed to board the plane. They'd ask for your name, but you could give them any name, they didn't care. I realize that we're a long way from that world now, and we could never go back to it, but it sure was nice.
- grishka 2y ago
  That's how train tickets still work in Europe, I was kinda surprised and impressed. They don't check IDs at all, you just show a QR code. In Russia where I'm from you need to show an ID to buy a long-distance train ticket and then again when you board the train. I was told that scalping was rampant before this was introduced which is totally believable. Which begs the question, how do European railway operators prevent it without requiring IDs?
  - lifestyleguru 2y ago
    I personally witnessed in Deutsche Bahn that passenger ticket was invalidated because he failed to show physical payment card he used to purchase the ticket online. That's why I started to buy physical tickets at the counter which is another kind of horror story.
    - grishka 2y ago
      Interesting. The only time I traveled on a Deutsche Bahn train, it was delayed 20 minutes, and they scanned my ticket off my laptop screen while I was already on the train, without saying a word :D
  - 2y ago

7bit 2y ago

Why? Thank God in Germany it is forbidden to requiring an account for online purchases and you can buy anything online without needing to register for an account first.

lifestyleguru 2y ago
Most merchants and service providers keep your shadow account after purchase anyway. If you are lawyery kind of person you can request deleting the shadow account by contacting them and giving away even more of your personal details.
- madjam002 2y ago
  Exactly, an account has been created for you anyway and the merchant holds pretty much the same amount of data on you, so I think requiring an account is a good thing as then at least you know that a company holds all these records about you. To be clear for online purchases I think it's a nice convenience to be able to buy without requiring an account, but for flights it's an entirely different game, you often need to provide a lot more PII.
- 7bit 2y ago
  That is not the point. Of course they have data about me. That requirement is dictated by tax law. I really don't care if the seller creates a shadow account or not, that's his problem. The point is that I'm not forced to create and manage an account and I can do a second purchase without having to remember or reset a password to an account that was forced upon me.