4 ms·

> it kind of massages our ego, like yes, they can measure other sorts of productivity, but not ours, oh no, we're too complex and intelligent, there's no way to

by n_ary 2y ago

> it kind of massages our ego, like yes, they can measure other sorts of productivity, but not ours, oh no, we're too complex and intelligent, there's no way to measure the deep sorts of work that we do! Which, yes, OK, we're not exactly bricklayers, but surely, if you had to, you could do better. Productivity is not a cut-n-dry stat for any kind of knowledge work. For an admin, we could say they were more productive if they handled more cases than last month. But this does not account for tricky cases or ambiguous cases, which might have taken 2x time to sort out but on rote numbers it looks they were less productive. For us, there are no specific goals(except arbitrary imaginary deadlines by clueless management and sprint points) to correctly measure productivity. A junior engineer may spend 4h each day blasting out many lines of codes, a mid/senior may spend more hours in reviews or meetings. A 5 line PR with test coverage is faster to review than a 800+ LOC PR with additional tests and have significant risk of breaking something, so review number is also not a good indicator. I need to coordinate with min. 12 people to get any new credentials or access to specific env owned by another team, which is not countable as productive but unavoidable. How about that garbage meeting where I was just spending time yawning because some new tech lead who believes that a modular monolith system is better if it was rewritten as event based. Productivity measurement is hard. To take your envy(I sense it on the quoted remark) to another place, think about how you go about measuring productivity of a CEO, PO, PM, Scrum Master, Agilist/Agile-Specialist etc?

johnfn 2y ago
> To take your envy(I sense it on the quoted remark) to another place, think about how you go about measuring productivity of a CEO, PO, PM, Scrum Master, Agilist/Agile-Specialist etc? I have no envy; I'm a software engineer as well. I just don't seem to struggle, as others claim to, in measuring productivity. I find it fairly straightforward to see that some people are more productive than others, at least in my workplace where we can hold most things constant (e.g. meeting count, managerial ability, etc, etc). Yes, there may be external factors, and that's unfortunate. Yes, it's not fair that some people are more productive than others despite putting in half the effort. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend it's invisible.
- WgaqPdNr7PGLGVW 2y ago
  > I just don't seem to struggle, as others claim to, in measuring productivity. Because you are measuring at a very broad and basic level. Steve is more productive than Susan. Great. How much more productive? Can you turn it into a number? Can you still do it consistently when Steve and Susan are in different teams in different parts of the organisation trying to achieve different goals? I've done DB upgrades that took 10 minutes and I've done DB upgrades that took 3-4 months. What changed was not my productivity but the nature of the problem. Yet from the outside they were both just DB upgrades. If Susan had done the DB upgrade in 12 weeks could we confidently claim that Steve could have done it in 11 weeks? Steve hasn't even done a DB upgrade since he joined the company. Perhaps Steve could have done it in 10 minutes?
  - theamk 2y ago
    I don't think anyone can get numbers, but partial ordering is much easier. If Steve and Susan are in different part of organization, the answer is "cannot compare". If they are doing different job, the answer is the same. But every once in a while there is a scenarios when you can compare people easily. There has a weekly rotation to be an support person for other team. During his week, John always answers questions quickly and to the team's satisfaction. Meanwhile James struggles to answer them and cannot troubleshoot product his team is writing. This has been going on for multiple months and hundreds of questions for each, so it's not "bad week" unlucky or fluke. We now know who is better at answering questions about product. John and James are doing DB migrations, they did many dozens of them. The migrations are assigned randomly. But John is usually finishing his migrations with no problems, while James often caused outages or missing data. A few times James took over two months to migrate, so the task was taken from him and given to John. John had to discard everything James did and migrate everything from scratch. Now there is a migration for a very important client and CEO is fed up with random assignment.. who is he going to choose?
    - rob74 2y ago
      I would argue that here you are talking less about productivity and more about basic competence?
theamk 2y ago
Sure, productivity it's not cut-n-dry stat, but it's not completely impossible to measure either. For a team, there are very clear goals: to make product that customers like, and to keep improving it for a long time. The last part is especially hard to measure, so people do all sorts of approximations, some very bad. For individual, productivity is measured on multiple axis - new long-term features, throw-away and prototypes, code maintenance, fire-fighting, code reviews, high-level design, outside-of-team communications, intra-team communications (for example helping teammates), archeology, specific parts of your project, probably others. In ideal team, everyone is strong on at least one or two axes, so no person is worse than others. In real teams, I've seen people who were weak on every single axis and did not seem to improve with time. I've also seen people who are great at everything, and it's extremely nice when such people exist - but they are very rare. (Btw, re your specific example: if you weren't productive because you were waiting for others to approve your access then you were not productive. There is nothing complex about this, there were plenty of times when I've said, "I did nothing for project S last week because they still could not give me access")
- kitd 2y ago
  For a team, there are very clear goals: to make product that customers like, ... With respect, that goal is far from clear. How do you measure how much they like the product? Have we achieved more "likes" this sprint than last? Customers like a product because it removes their problems. QED.
  - feoren 2y ago
    > With respect, that goal is far from clear. How do you measure how much they like the product? Completely agree: focus groups, A/B testing, Net Promoter Score, 5-stars, like/dislike -- all of those systems are notorious for being unreliable in various ways, and optimizing for them is the cause of many sub-optimal decisions and Prisoner's Dilemmas in many industries. > Customers like a product because it removes their problems. QED. Your first point was "actually the world is really complicated" (strong agree) and your second was "actually the world is super simple" (strong disagree). Customers like products for wild reasons, unknown even to themselves. I've heard some slot-machine addicts get irritated if they win the jackpot, because it breaks them out of their state of flow. You could argue "well clearly that lack of flow was the problem slot machines are solving" but then you're just using circular reasoning: if a customer likes a product, it must be solving the problem for them that they previously did not have that product. I don't think you could have looked at the slot-machine addict a year before they started gambling and deduced that they had some sort of problem that slot machines needed to fill. There's often no clear link from a-priori diagnosable "problems" that people have to the products that they buy. In the universe populated by logical econs that do act this way, store shelves and advertising look very different.

by n_ary 2y ago

johnfn 2y ago

> To take your envy(I sense it on the quoted remark) to another place, think about how you go about measuring productivity of a CEO, PO, PM, Scrum Master, Agilist/Agile-Specialist etc? I have no envy; I'm a software engineer as well. I just don't seem to struggle, as others claim to, in measuring productivity. I find it fairly straightforward to see that some people are more productive than others, at least in my workplace where we can hold most things constant (e.g. meeting count, managerial ability, etc, etc). Yes, there may be external factors, and that's unfortunate. Yes, it's not fair that some people are more productive than others despite putting in half the effort. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend it's invisible.

WgaqPdNr7PGLGVW 2y ago
> I just don't seem to struggle, as others claim to, in measuring productivity. Because you are measuring at a very broad and basic level. Steve is more productive than Susan. Great. How much more productive? Can you turn it into a number? Can you still do it consistently when Steve and Susan are in different teams in different parts of the organisation trying to achieve different goals? I've done DB upgrades that took 10 minutes and I've done DB upgrades that took 3-4 months. What changed was not my productivity but the nature of the problem. Yet from the outside they were both just DB upgrades. If Susan had done the DB upgrade in 12 weeks could we confidently claim that Steve could have done it in 11 weeks? Steve hasn't even done a DB upgrade since he joined the company. Perhaps Steve could have done it in 10 minutes?
- theamk 2y ago
  I don't think anyone can get numbers, but partial ordering is much easier. If Steve and Susan are in different part of organization, the answer is "cannot compare". If they are doing different job, the answer is the same. But every once in a while there is a scenarios when you can compare people easily. There has a weekly rotation to be an support person for other team. During his week, John always answers questions quickly and to the team's satisfaction. Meanwhile James struggles to answer them and cannot troubleshoot product his team is writing. This has been going on for multiple months and hundreds of questions for each, so it's not "bad week" unlucky or fluke. We now know who is better at answering questions about product. John and James are doing DB migrations, they did many dozens of them. The migrations are assigned randomly. But John is usually finishing his migrations with no problems, while James often caused outages or missing data. A few times James took over two months to migrate, so the task was taken from him and given to John. John had to discard everything James did and migrate everything from scratch. Now there is a migration for a very important client and CEO is fed up with random assignment.. who is he going to choose?
  - rob74 2y ago
    I would argue that here you are talking less about productivity and more about basic competence?

theamk 2y ago

Sure, productivity it's not cut-n-dry stat, but it's not completely impossible to measure either. For a team, there are very clear goals: to make product that customers like, and to keep improving it for a long time. The last part is especially hard to measure, so people do all sorts of approximations, some very bad. For individual, productivity is measured on multiple axis - new long-term features, throw-away and prototypes, code maintenance, fire-fighting, code reviews, high-level design, outside-of-team communications, intra-team communications (for example helping teammates), archeology, specific parts of your project, probably others. In ideal team, everyone is strong on at least one or two axes, so no person is worse than others. In real teams, I've seen people who were weak on every single axis and did not seem to improve with time. I've also seen people who are great at everything, and it's extremely nice when such people exist - but they are very rare. (Btw, re your specific example: if you weren't productive because you were waiting for others to approve your access then you were not productive. There is nothing complex about this, there were plenty of times when I've said, "I did nothing for project S last week because they still could not give me access")

kitd 2y ago
For a team, there are very clear goals: to make product that customers like, ... With respect, that goal is far from clear. How do you measure how much they like the product? Have we achieved more "likes" this sprint than last? Customers like a product because it removes their problems. QED.
- feoren 2y ago
  > With respect, that goal is far from clear. How do you measure how much they like the product? Completely agree: focus groups, A/B testing, Net Promoter Score, 5-stars, like/dislike -- all of those systems are notorious for being unreliable in various ways, and optimizing for them is the cause of many sub-optimal decisions and Prisoner's Dilemmas in many industries. > Customers like a product because it removes their problems. QED. Your first point was "actually the world is really complicated" (strong agree) and your second was "actually the world is super simple" (strong disagree). Customers like products for wild reasons, unknown even to themselves. I've heard some slot-machine addicts get irritated if they win the jackpot, because it breaks them out of their state of flow. You could argue "well clearly that lack of flow was the problem slot machines are solving" but then you're just using circular reasoning: if a customer likes a product, it must be solving the problem for them that they previously did not have that product. I don't think you could have looked at the slot-machine addict a year before they started gambling and deduced that they had some sort of problem that slot machines needed to fill. There's often no clear link from a-priori diagnosable "problems" that people have to the products that they buy. In the universe populated by logical econs that do act this way, store shelves and advertising look very different.