5 ms·

> Yes, we pay well. Prove it. What city are you in, and what is total comp for software engineer & hardware engineer with 20 years of experience? I worked in

> Yes, we pay well. Prove it. What city are you in, and what is total comp for software engineer & hardware engineer with 20 years of experience? I worked in national defense. It was a pain in the ass: shit pay, worst politics, massive tolerance for incompetence & mediocrity, meeting hell, and secrecy (necessary, but "need to know" gatekeeping wasnt at times).

SauciestGNU 2y ago
Why would I work in person for less money when I can work remote? For in person work on critical applications like satellites, I'd expect (spitballing here) a staff eng to be making 300k base with substantial bonus/espp on top. Consider that most midsize tech companies are going to pay staff level 200k or above and ask how the company in question compares, before pricing in the crushing inflexibility of in person work.
- nativeit 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - briandear 2y ago
    Defense contractors don’t give the government a discount for “fulfilling and meaningful” projects. It’s “f-you, pay me.” Why should employees of that industry give the employer a discount?
  - 5ADBEEF 2y ago
    the average defense job is the exact opposite of fulfilling and meaningful
    - rcpt 2y ago
      Not if you like showing roughly the same set of slides 5x per week in meetings with roughly the same set of people in each one
  - SauciestGNU 2y ago
    That's the line they gave all my peers who went into public interest and non-profits. Most of them left from burnout or because the low pay and high demands were exploitative. Here's the trick these mission-oriented employers don't want you to know: you can use the freedom that money affords in order to build meaningful and fulfilling aspects into your life outside of work.
  - russnes 2y ago
    this is what church is for
  - baq 2y ago
    That’s what they want you to believe so they can pay you less than Google. Meanwhile the googlers got rich and are doing fulfilling and meaningful work on their own pace once they quit.
    - lazide 2y ago
      If you think the gov’t work is actually more meaningful and fulfilling than what anyone at Google has been doing, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
      - justin66 2y ago
        Working on banner ads is the kind of thing you will tell your grandkids about.
        lazide 2y ago
        The only folks I know who were doing actual meaningful gov’t work couldn’t tell their grandkids about it either. Still classified.
        justin66 2y ago
        I assume people find meaning in different ways (perhaps I was being unfair to the tech-advertising business). I've always thought the Library of Congress, Smithsonian, NASA, or the National Park Service might potentially be amazing places to work, depending on the role. Looking at a full list of federal government agencies it doesn't seem crazy to me that people could find meaningful work in some of the others. Nothing as meaningful as maintenance programming at Google, of course. At least the paychecks wouldn't be as meaningful.
  - mnky9800n 2y ago
    That’s a good reason to pay more sense you want the best and brightest to work on fulfilling and meaningful problems
  - Redoubts 2y ago
    My mortgage is meaningful too
  - CrispyKerosene 2y ago
    Shame my mortgagor doesn't accept fulfillment and meaningfulness as payment options.
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  > I'd expect (spitballing here) a staff eng to be making 300k base with substantial bonus/espp on top This is a fairytale in DoD work and while I think there's room for us to improve our compensation I'm not sure this is a reasonable number at the moment. Please don't flame me for this, just sharing my opinion. I work on a critical DoD new-work project. The only way to achieve that number in this sector would be private consulting with a very strong network. I will say that it's a very easy world to network in, at least in my experience. I also find the work and location I'm in very meaningful and interesting compared to most of the private sector work accessible to me at this point in my career. I don't think as many people love remote work as HN suggests. We have an extremely flexible hybrid and PTO policy here, and we're in a great midsize city that people love living in. This is just a random jumble of thoughts in response. Cheers
  - SauciestGNU 2y ago
    I appreciate your insider perspective and insight here. I realize that most industries don't pay their engineers like tech companies do. I just wish that we as workers instead of accepting less would instead agitate for better wages across the board. I previously left a very engaging pharmaceutical research job to work in finance because the money I was leaving on the table got to be too much for me to justify, regardless of how much I enjoyed the work.
  - acuozzo 2y ago
    That number shows up very often for the Principal SWE LCAT on contracts serving agencies at Ft. Meade.
  - Shocka1 2y ago
    I don't work for the DoD, but announcing it seems like bad OPSEC?
    - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
      In that case I am obviously joking
diob 2y ago
Yeah, it just sounds like the ole "no one wants to work anymore" line when really it's you're not paying enough.
- m00x 2y ago
  We pay $400-700k for L4-L6 and we have a hard time finding qualified candidates.
  - ikiris 2y ago
    Then it’s not enough. This isn’t hard.
    - gottorf 2y ago
      Your statement is trivially true in terms of market mechanics, but considering that $400k/yr for an individual puts him in the 99th percentile of all income earners in the US, the argument gets a little harder to make.
      - caseyohara 2y ago
        I reckon a L4-L6 engineer should be in the 99th percentile of talent and value for US workers so I don’t see the problem.
      - mrep 2y ago
        "400k" (he/she says they work for a private company so they haven't told us how much of that is actual cash in hand) and also in an unknown location which could be the bay area which in that case, just go work for Google/Meta/Netflix and make that money in cash/RSUs.
        m00x 2y ago
        Yeah it's SF/Seattle/Chicago $400k is base + bonus
      - 2y ago

SauciestGNU 2y ago

Why would I work in person for less money when I can work remote? For in person work on critical applications like satellites, I'd expect (spitballing here) a staff eng to be making 300k base with substantial bonus/espp on top. Consider that most midsize tech companies are going to pay staff level 200k or above and ask how the company in question compares, before pricing in the crushing inflexibility of in person work.

nativeit 2y ago
[flagged]
- briandear 2y ago
  Defense contractors don’t give the government a discount for “fulfilling and meaningful” projects. It’s “f-you, pay me.” Why should employees of that industry give the employer a discount?
- 5ADBEEF 2y ago
  the average defense job is the exact opposite of fulfilling and meaningful
  - rcpt 2y ago
    Not if you like showing roughly the same set of slides 5x per week in meetings with roughly the same set of people in each one
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  That's the line they gave all my peers who went into public interest and non-profits. Most of them left from burnout or because the low pay and high demands were exploitative. Here's the trick these mission-oriented employers don't want you to know: you can use the freedom that money affords in order to build meaningful and fulfilling aspects into your life outside of work.
- russnes 2y ago
  this is what church is for
- baq 2y ago
  That’s what they want you to believe so they can pay you less than Google. Meanwhile the googlers got rich and are doing fulfilling and meaningful work on their own pace once they quit.
  - lazide 2y ago
    If you think the gov’t work is actually more meaningful and fulfilling than what anyone at Google has been doing, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
    - justin66 2y ago
      Working on banner ads is the kind of thing you will tell your grandkids about.
      - lazide 2y ago
        The only folks I know who were doing actual meaningful gov’t work couldn’t tell their grandkids about it either. Still classified.
        justin66 2y ago
        I assume people find meaning in different ways (perhaps I was being unfair to the tech-advertising business). I've always thought the Library of Congress, Smithsonian, NASA, or the National Park Service might potentially be amazing places to work, depending on the role. Looking at a full list of federal government agencies it doesn't seem crazy to me that people could find meaningful work in some of the others. Nothing as meaningful as maintenance programming at Google, of course. At least the paychecks wouldn't be as meaningful.
- mnky9800n 2y ago
  That’s a good reason to pay more sense you want the best and brightest to work on fulfilling and meaningful problems
- Redoubts 2y ago
  My mortgage is meaningful too
- CrispyKerosene 2y ago
  Shame my mortgagor doesn't accept fulfillment and meaningfulness as payment options.
DiggyJohnson 2y ago
> I'd expect (spitballing here) a staff eng to be making 300k base with substantial bonus/espp on top This is a fairytale in DoD work and while I think there's room for us to improve our compensation I'm not sure this is a reasonable number at the moment. Please don't flame me for this, just sharing my opinion. I work on a critical DoD new-work project. The only way to achieve that number in this sector would be private consulting with a very strong network. I will say that it's a very easy world to network in, at least in my experience. I also find the work and location I'm in very meaningful and interesting compared to most of the private sector work accessible to me at this point in my career. I don't think as many people love remote work as HN suggests. We have an extremely flexible hybrid and PTO policy here, and we're in a great midsize city that people love living in. This is just a random jumble of thoughts in response. Cheers
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  I appreciate your insider perspective and insight here. I realize that most industries don't pay their engineers like tech companies do. I just wish that we as workers instead of accepting less would instead agitate for better wages across the board. I previously left a very engaging pharmaceutical research job to work in finance because the money I was leaving on the table got to be too much for me to justify, regardless of how much I enjoyed the work.
- acuozzo 2y ago
  That number shows up very often for the Principal SWE LCAT on contracts serving agencies at Ft. Meade.
- Shocka1 2y ago
  I don't work for the DoD, but announcing it seems like bad OPSEC?
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
    In that case I am obviously joking

diob 2y ago

Yeah, it just sounds like the ole "no one wants to work anymore" line when really it's you're not paying enough.

m00x 2y ago
We pay $400-700k for L4-L6 and we have a hard time finding qualified candidates.
- ikiris 2y ago
  Then it’s not enough. This isn’t hard.
  - gottorf 2y ago
    Your statement is trivially true in terms of market mechanics, but considering that $400k/yr for an individual puts him in the 99th percentile of all income earners in the US, the argument gets a little harder to make.
    - caseyohara 2y ago
      I reckon a L4-L6 engineer should be in the 99th percentile of talent and value for US workers so I don’t see the problem.
    - mrep 2y ago
      "400k" (he/she says they work for a private company so they haven't told us how much of that is actual cash in hand) and also in an unknown location which could be the bay area which in that case, just go work for Google/Meta/Netflix and make that money in cash/RSUs.
      - m00x 2y ago
        Yeah it's SF/Seattle/Chicago $400k is base + bonus
    - 2y ago