4 ms·

But again, that is access to knowledge. How good would your college education have been if there was no library or textbooks? If you took the athletes today wi

But again, that is access to knowledge. How good would your college education have been if there was no library or textbooks? If you took the athletes today without their support team and sent them back in time two years before an Olympics event to compete on their own, I don't think it would be as big of a blowout as you suggest.

sethherr 2y ago
It would be a huge blowout. We didn’t know how to train or eat and athletes smoked and drank substantially more. Meanwhile, the gear evolutions make significant difference. But take distance running - prior to 1954, nobody had done a sub 4 minute mile. After that was known to be possible multiple people sub 4 minute miled in the following decade. If you sent a top runner back a hundred years they would be able to run a sub 4 minute mile, even with 1920s equipment - and the world record in 1923 was 4:10
- yread 2y ago
  > even with 1920s equipment Are you sure about that? Can you post a result where someone ran with leather shoes on asphalt?
  - hilux 2y ago
    Zola Budd, a woman, ran a barefoot mile in 4:17.57, which is about 10 seconds slower than the current women's WR. The men's mile WR is about 24 seconds faster than the women's. Presumably plenty of barefoot African dudes could run a mile a lot faster than Budd did. With the exception of the new "energy return" shoes, there's no evidence that shoes help runners run faster - probably the opposite.
- kaffekaka 2y ago
  As far as I know the progression into sub 4 minute miles was quite linear and not some kind of sudden breach once everybody understood it was at all possible. The story of a sudden breach is perhaps more attractive though.
  - sethherr 2y ago
    From wikipedia's 4 minute mile article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile > The four-minute barrier was first broken on 6 May 1954 at Oxford University's Iffley Road Track, by British athlete Roger Bannister > On 21 June 1954, at an international meet at Turku, Finland, Australia's John Landy became the second man, after Bannister, to achieve a sub-four-minute mile. In 1955 Laszlo Tabori was the third person to break the 4 minute barrier. Then, in 1956, three runners broke the four-minute barrier in a single race. This matches what I described, multiple people attained it once it was understood to be possible. It was linear up to the 4 minute mark, but the point is that records that used to be impossible are now humdrum once achieved.
    - kaffekaka 2y ago
      I read this one: https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister-effect-the-myth-of-the-psychological-breakthrough.html?v=47e5dceea252 https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister... With for example: "What this shows us is that the issue wasn’t massively psychological. If it was, we would have seen athletes running 1,500m races much faster than their corresponding mile time. Instead, we see that the progression matches up nicely. People were stuck on 4 minutes at the same time they were stuck on 3:43. Do we really think that runners were stuck on a mythical 3:43.0 barrier?" In case you don't want to read it, it says that other distances had similar "breakthroughs" but they were not associated with a mental barrier like "4 minute mile". Rather, the article argues, the development may have been related to WW2. Edit: it just so happened that for mile running, the stagnation after WW2 occured just around the four minute mark. You need to look at other distances and perhaps even other sports to see the pattern. Indeed, my country Sweden won the olympic football/soccer in 1948 - a result widely regarded as being due to other countries have sent all their young men to the war while Sweden stayed neutral/did not fight the germans.
WalterBright 2y ago
Interesting that you mention textbooks. Most of my STEM classes in college did not have a textbook, or recommended a book that was kinda irrelevant to the direction the classes took. BTW, the discovery of the Scientific Method was a great leap forward in how to discover more knowledge.
- Eisenstein 2y ago
  > Most of my STEM classes in college did not have a textbook, or recommended a book that was kinda irrelevant to the direction the classes took. So you went through classes with no written material? You listened to lecture, took notes, and then did assignments and passed tests with no documents to study? > BTW, the discovery of the Scientific Method was a great leap forward in how to discover more knowledge. The scientific method is a set of protocols that are followed in order to formalize evidence and prediction. Putting it into a set of words is important, but not required. Humans managed to sail across oceans and build wonders just fine without it.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Humans made gradual progress before the scientific method but it was slow and kind of random. If you look at the historical pace of innovation it tremendously accelerated after the scientific method became widespread.
    - Eisenstein 2y ago
      > Humans made gradual progress before the scientific method When was 'before the scientific method' exactly? > it was slow and kind of random. I would argue it wasn't random at all -- it was directed towards human needs and desires as appropriate to the times. There was never a period where humans stopped using their intelligence and problem solving skills to improve their lives in whatever ways were available. > If you look at the historical pace of innovation it tremendously accelerated after the scientific method became widespread. When did it become widespread? Where did it spread to? Did those places all show a similar increase in innovation in the years after?

sethherr 2y ago

It would be a huge blowout. We didn’t know how to train or eat and athletes smoked and drank substantially more. Meanwhile, the gear evolutions make significant difference. But take distance running - prior to 1954, nobody had done a sub 4 minute mile. After that was known to be possible multiple people sub 4 minute miled in the following decade. If you sent a top runner back a hundred years they would be able to run a sub 4 minute mile, even with 1920s equipment - and the world record in 1923 was 4:10

yread 2y ago
> even with 1920s equipment Are you sure about that? Can you post a result where someone ran with leather shoes on asphalt?
- hilux 2y ago
  Zola Budd, a woman, ran a barefoot mile in 4:17.57, which is about 10 seconds slower than the current women's WR. The men's mile WR is about 24 seconds faster than the women's. Presumably plenty of barefoot African dudes could run a mile a lot faster than Budd did. With the exception of the new "energy return" shoes, there's no evidence that shoes help runners run faster - probably the opposite.
kaffekaka 2y ago
As far as I know the progression into sub 4 minute miles was quite linear and not some kind of sudden breach once everybody understood it was at all possible. The story of a sudden breach is perhaps more attractive though.
- sethherr 2y ago
  From wikipedia's 4 minute mile article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile > The four-minute barrier was first broken on 6 May 1954 at Oxford University's Iffley Road Track, by British athlete Roger Bannister > On 21 June 1954, at an international meet at Turku, Finland, Australia's John Landy became the second man, after Bannister, to achieve a sub-four-minute mile. In 1955 Laszlo Tabori was the third person to break the 4 minute barrier. Then, in 1956, three runners broke the four-minute barrier in a single race. This matches what I described, multiple people attained it once it was understood to be possible. It was linear up to the 4 minute mark, but the point is that records that used to be impossible are now humdrum once achieved.
  - kaffekaka 2y ago
    I read this one: https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister-effect-the-myth-of-the-psychological-breakthrough.html?v=47e5dceea252 https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister... With for example: "What this shows us is that the issue wasn’t massively psychological. If it was, we would have seen athletes running 1,500m races much faster than their corresponding mile time. Instead, we see that the progression matches up nicely. People were stuck on 4 minutes at the same time they were stuck on 3:43. Do we really think that runners were stuck on a mythical 3:43.0 barrier?" In case you don't want to read it, it says that other distances had similar "breakthroughs" but they were not associated with a mental barrier like "4 minute mile". Rather, the article argues, the development may have been related to WW2. Edit: it just so happened that for mile running, the stagnation after WW2 occured just around the four minute mark. You need to look at other distances and perhaps even other sports to see the pattern. Indeed, my country Sweden won the olympic football/soccer in 1948 - a result widely regarded as being due to other countries have sent all their young men to the war while Sweden stayed neutral/did not fight the germans.

WalterBright 2y ago

Interesting that you mention textbooks. Most of my STEM classes in college did not have a textbook, or recommended a book that was kinda irrelevant to the direction the classes took. BTW, the discovery of the Scientific Method was a great leap forward in how to discover more knowledge.

Eisenstein 2y ago
> Most of my STEM classes in college did not have a textbook, or recommended a book that was kinda irrelevant to the direction the classes took. So you went through classes with no written material? You listened to lecture, took notes, and then did assignments and passed tests with no documents to study? > BTW, the discovery of the Scientific Method was a great leap forward in how to discover more knowledge. The scientific method is a set of protocols that are followed in order to formalize evidence and prediction. Putting it into a set of words is important, but not required. Humans managed to sail across oceans and build wonders just fine without it.
- nradov 2y ago
  Humans made gradual progress before the scientific method but it was slow and kind of random. If you look at the historical pace of innovation it tremendously accelerated after the scientific method became widespread.
  - Eisenstein 2y ago
    > Humans made gradual progress before the scientific method When was 'before the scientific method' exactly? > it was slow and kind of random. I would argue it wasn't random at all -- it was directed towards human needs and desires as appropriate to the times. There was never a period where humans stopped using their intelligence and problem solving skills to improve their lives in whatever ways were available. > If you look at the historical pace of innovation it tremendously accelerated after the scientific method became widespread. When did it become widespread? Where did it spread to? Did those places all show a similar increase in innovation in the years after?