5 ms·

Not to pile on, but if linear algebra is really a part of the day-to-day job and not some manager’s mistaken idea of a proxy for more general talent, then you’r

by biztos 2y ago

Not to pile on, but if linear algebra is really a part of the day-to-day job and not some manager’s mistaken idea of a proxy for more general talent, then you’re hiring specialists and the pool will not be that large. People who remember all their math and enjoy it and can also code, are also very employable at all the AI companies and departments, including at Meta. And how do you know if someone’s eligible for security clearance without applying for it? (Other than the obvious “be a US citizen, don’t be a spy” part.)

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Isn’t linear algebra heavily used in machine learning and computer graphics (not just know it, but be able to wield it proficiently)? So ya, the talent probably exists, but they hit the “these engineers are making half a million a year to do something else” problem.
- biztos 2y ago
  Yes, exactly, I would (naïvely) assume it's common among e.g. ML specialists, who are in high demand and thus hard to recruit. I'm sure there are a lot, but if I had to extrapolate from experience ("OK, who's good at math, hands up?") I would say it's less than 20% of coder genpop.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bravura 2y ago
  There is a lot of published research work in ML that had huge impact without explicitly touching linear algebra. Given that is the case, to answer your question: yes, linear algebra is the foundation of ML. No, a lot of impactful day-to-day ML engineering can be done without touching linear algebra. This is how assembly is the basis of compilation and programming. But you probably are going to get a whole lot of work done without ever using it. It's generally a nice flex when applicants can code assembly, and usually a yellow-flag when the company suggests they require knowledge of assembly. To me, my eyebrows raise when an industry person mentions linear algebra. I'm just saying the odds are really low that you actually use it.
avmich 2y ago
> People who remember all their math and enjoy it and can also code, are also very employable at all the AI companies and departments, including at Meta. That's either a wishful thinking or a stretch of definitions, IMHO.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
  What about the opposite? My math is getting super rusty but it doesn't matter because all I do is push protos around. Yet I seem to be pretty employable.
fn-mote 2y ago
> if linear algebra is really a part of the day-to-day job [...] then you’re hiring specialists It kind of bothers me that the parent and other readers here are passing off knowing linear algebra as some kind of esoteric skill. Linear algebra is a year 2 course in a undergraduate eduation. There are polished libraries to make it fast. Unless you mean enough knowledge to be writing linear algebra libraries, there is no need to consider this skill a high hurdle.
- yazzku 2y ago
  Why is this down-voted? I was going to add most people have already seen some sort of linear algebra even in high school. Determinants, Gaussian elimination, etc. It's unclear what "linear algebra" means to GP, though. I agree writing linear algebra libraries is next level, since that involves numerical code and knowing FP math well.
  - ponow 2y ago
    > Determinants, Gaussian elimination, etc. Umm, not in Pennsylvania government high schools, not typically. Not by a long shot.
  - lovich 2y ago
    This is a real life version of this comic https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
  - tanjtanjtanj 2y ago
    The number of American (and most other countries too) students who interacted with Gaussian elimination or Determinants in High School can fairly safely be rounded down to zero.
    - ted_dunning 2y ago
      And we wonder why the US is declining in the ranking for HS math competence.
- biztos 2y ago
simoncion 2y ago
> And how do you know if someone’s eligible for security clearance without applying for it? The short answer is "You can't, not with 100% certainty.". Based on my experience from decades ago, the long answer is "Anyone who's a US citizen and doesn't lie about their drug use and debts can get a Secret clearance.". Things MIGHT have significantly changed since my clearance lapsed way back when, but I doubt it.
- simoncion 2y ago
  Actually, after engaging my brain a bit more fully, I realize that one can be eligible for a security clearance but fail to actually be granted one. That is, eligibility concerns whether or not the State Department will consider your application, not whether or not they will grant the clearance after performing their background and lifestyle investigation.

by biztos 2y ago

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

Isn’t linear algebra heavily used in machine learning and computer graphics (not just know it, but be able to wield it proficiently)? So ya, the talent probably exists, but they hit the “these engineers are making half a million a year to do something else” problem.

biztos 2y ago
Yes, exactly, I would (naïvely) assume it's common among e.g. ML specialists, who are in high demand and thus hard to recruit. I'm sure there are a lot, but if I had to extrapolate from experience ("OK, who's good at math, hands up?") I would say it's less than 20% of coder genpop.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bravura 2y ago
There is a lot of published research work in ML that had huge impact without explicitly touching linear algebra. Given that is the case, to answer your question: yes, linear algebra is the foundation of ML. No, a lot of impactful day-to-day ML engineering can be done without touching linear algebra. This is how assembly is the basis of compilation and programming. But you probably are going to get a whole lot of work done without ever using it. It's generally a nice flex when applicants can code assembly, and usually a yellow-flag when the company suggests they require knowledge of assembly. To me, my eyebrows raise when an industry person mentions linear algebra. I'm just saying the odds are really low that you actually use it.

avmich 2y ago

> People who remember all their math and enjoy it and can also code, are also very employable at all the AI companies and departments, including at Meta. That's either a wishful thinking or a stretch of definitions, IMHO.

8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
What about the opposite? My math is getting super rusty but it doesn't matter because all I do is push protos around. Yet I seem to be pretty employable.

fn-mote 2y ago

> if linear algebra is really a part of the day-to-day job [...] then you’re hiring specialists It kind of bothers me that the parent and other readers here are passing off knowing linear algebra as some kind of esoteric skill. Linear algebra is a year 2 course in a undergraduate eduation. There are polished libraries to make it fast. Unless you mean enough knowledge to be writing linear algebra libraries, there is no need to consider this skill a high hurdle.

yazzku 2y ago
Why is this down-voted? I was going to add most people have already seen some sort of linear algebra even in high school. Determinants, Gaussian elimination, etc. It's unclear what "linear algebra" means to GP, though. I agree writing linear algebra libraries is next level, since that involves numerical code and knowing FP math well.
- ponow 2y ago
  > Determinants, Gaussian elimination, etc. Umm, not in Pennsylvania government high schools, not typically. Not by a long shot.
- lovich 2y ago
  This is a real life version of this comic https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
- tanjtanjtanj 2y ago
  The number of American (and most other countries too) students who interacted with Gaussian elimination or Determinants in High School can fairly safely be rounded down to zero.
  - ted_dunning 2y ago
    And we wonder why the US is declining in the ranking for HS math competence.
biztos 2y ago

simoncion 2y ago

> And how do you know if someone’s eligible for security clearance without applying for it? The short answer is "You can't, not with 100% certainty.". Based on my experience from decades ago, the long answer is "Anyone who's a US citizen and doesn't lie about their drug use and debts can get a Secret clearance.". Things MIGHT have significantly changed since my clearance lapsed way back when, but I doubt it.

simoncion 2y ago
Actually, after engaging my brain a bit more fully, I realize that one can be eligible for a security clearance but fail to actually be granted one. That is, eligibility concerns whether or not the State Department will consider your application, not whether or not they will grant the clearance after performing their background and lifestyle investigation.