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> We cannot find qualified applicants > No, we don’t pay as much as Meta. So, essentially, you are seeking special treatment from US citizens. I’m not saying

by tgma 2y ago

> We cannot find qualified applicants > No, we don’t pay as much as Meta. So, essentially, you are seeking special treatment from US citizens. I’m not saying this is always unreasonable, but you’re in the territory of a centrally planned economic decision, and in the US philosophy that is supposed to be done minimally. Maybe the right thing is for your company to shut down or change their line of business, freeing up the labor for Meta.

scarface_74 2y ago
There are 4.8 million developers in the US most of them are not making Meta salaries and I would say that 80% will never see 200K inflation adjusted in thier lives. Instead of going to levels.fyi go to salary.com and choose any major city in the US that is not on the west coast. No most developers don’t get RSUs or anything else aside from their salaries and maybe a bonus. And before someone replies that I’m “bitter”. No I’m good, I’m 50. I did my stint at BigTech and I don’t have the shit tolerance level to deal with the politics of any large company.
- tgma 2y ago
  You are actually proving my point. If there are 4.8 million developers who are not commanding Meta salaries, and they "pay well" it should be fairly straightforward to get labor. It's simple: the more picky you are the more you will have to pay. The GP admitted the upper bound of Meta, which is a company that is sustainably operating in the same country. If you cannot compete in a labor market, either raise your product pricing or be more efficient. If not, you will make less profit and/or go out of business, which is an appropriate outcome most of the time. No one is entitled to their business model.
  - pixl97 2y ago
    I think the other part of the problem is no one in software wants to work in Huntsville. There are numerous reasons why AL sucks.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      There's a ton of reasons to not like AL, but Huntsville is actually pretty decent from what I've seen of it.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        Huntsville isn’t the socially liberal (ie we are all people and you do you) oasis like Atlanta, Miami and other major cities in red states. To be clear, I’m not saying all conservatives are evil. I have nothing against the Kemp’s (GA’s governor) and traditional conservatives.
        vel0city 2y ago
        I totally agree with you, people thinking of moving there should be aware of the politics of the area. But compared to a lot of the rest of Alabama and other stereotypes of the South, it's really a decent place. Definitely not the anti-science, anti-intellectual backwater many might assume. There's a lot of bright people there with interest in aerospace and engineering at all levels. And it's also a college town.
        pixl97 2y ago
        And yet you'll suffer from their policies. Just avoid getting pregnant and have complications, for one example.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    I can’t believe that his work is so complicated that he can’t take a good older developer in thier 30s, who would be more than willing to move to a lower cost of living area where they can raise a family affordability and design an internal training program to get them up to speed. Offer things that we care about like free health insurance, “unlimited PTO”, a generous 401K match with immediate vesting, etc. I personally wouldn’t move to Alabama. But many would. At 50, I need to work. But I don’t need to chase after FAANG salaries. I optimize for my other priorities. As I said in my previous post, I’m not “disdaining what I can’t have”. I’ve been there done that.
  - calculatte 2y ago
    Given that Meta pays so well, why are they so dependent on H1B? Or google? In 2023 they had a net elimination of 6576 US jobs, but added 5479 H1B. This isn't a simple market issue, these companies are abusing worker visas to replace Americans from their own companies.
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  While I'd normally use levels.fyi for more accurate data, since you don't want to rely on that, here's info from glassdoor. Senior: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-senior-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IS11047_KO7,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-senior-software-en... > $178K - $262K/yr Principal: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-principal-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IS11047_KO7,34.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-principal-software... > $269K - $415K/yr > The estimated total pay for a Principal Software Engineer is $329,957 per year in the Remote area, with an average salary of $196,928 per year. These numbers represent the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. The estimated additional pay is $133,029 per year. Additional pay could include cash bonus, commission, tips, and profit sharing. Sounds like the right ballpark. If you're in a location that doesn't pay as well, remote can pay much better.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Exactly how many “remote principal software developer” jobs do you think there are available and that’s a self selected sample and even then they for some reason separate “senior software developer”. Look at salary.com where you can see by cities. None of the BigTech companies have many remote jobs. Google is even requiring their customer facing professional services department to be in certain cities. That was a bridge too far even for AWS.
brookst 2y ago
Yes, because obviously we as a country should prioritize creepy VR avatars over understanding climate change. By this reasoning no charities should exist (they pay less than commercial orgs) and even people who are willing to work for less in order to feel good about their contribution should not be allowed to. It’s a very cynical, even nihilistic view.
- tgma 2y ago
  > Yes, because obviously we as a country should prioritize creepy VR avatars over understanding climate change. As a country we have decided to let the market decide what to prioritize. Who are we to judge "creepy VR avatars" are less important if people are willing to fair and square pay for them? If they are creepy, don't pay for them. > No charities should exist. No that is not the appropriate conclusion. People are of course free to work for less and balance their circumstances. If they want to volunteer for a charity by choice, more power to them. But no, using taxpayer money to fund "charities" is by-and-large corruption in my book. > It’s a very cynical, even nihilistic view. If we are doing labels, yours is a very communistic, statist, view. -- P.S. regardless of your PoV, I like that you acknowledge my core point: that the OP is seeking special treatment in the form of cheap labor from the US. You are simply arguing for that special treatment being justified, not denying that's the core demand.
  - snake42 2y ago
    Profit is not and shouldn't be the primary driver for whats useful economic activity. There is a lot of good work to be done that can't or won't be sustained by the market. Basic scientific research for example.
    - tgma 2y ago
      I mean sure you could argue that, as communists and others perhaps do, for instance, but we are chiefly talking about the US, where individual profit is decided, IMHO correctly, as the primary metric. Sure, you may want to choose to minimally do certain things for national security or other legitimate reasons as the people vote for (as I mentioned in three posts above), but that is supposed to be a deliberate choice of the people and their representatives, driven by their desires, not as an automatic subsidy to any pre-established business, in the form of lax immigration policy which can have second-order effects.
intended 2y ago
IF Meta is the benchmark for “good” pay, then this is nuts. There are far more people who need code, than just the people at FAANG companies. Are you saying that these firms are economically uncompetitive, with META, and should shut shop?
- pikclingoil 2y ago
  >Are you saying that these firms are economically uncompetitive, with META, and should shut shop? A company with same requirements but not the funding? Absolutely >There are far more people who need code, than just the people at FAANG companies. With different requirements you can find way more people.
  - intended 2y ago
    In that case, there is 100% going to be a move to offshoring. Ideally, the industry would relocate outside of the US, to a place where they can be competitive. However, since this defense, they can’t, and will never be competitive. So defense will languish. I guess that’s all I have. I can’t see a way out of the situation if we accept your premise. Defense margins aren’t going to beat social media margins, that too of something like meta. Requirements are requirements. If you need a hammer, scalpels won’t help.
    - tgma 2y ago
      > Defense margins aren’t going to beat social media margins Really? It's the first time I am hearing US is procuring defense for cheap! If there is a margin issue, that's an efficiency problem, i.e. the company is being an idiot or deliberately wasteful/stealing (perhaps due to structural problems like overreliance on cost-plus contracts).
      - intended 2y ago
        This isnt the first time you are hearing that social media margins are better than defense margins. That is a misrepresentation of what was said, and an unkindness to the conversation being had. Tech scales, in a way that manufacturing and physical products dont. I would assume that on HN, this is common knowledge, and that you also are aware of it.

by tgma 2y ago

scarface_74 2y ago

There are 4.8 million developers in the US most of them are not making Meta salaries and I would say that 80% will never see 200K inflation adjusted in thier lives. Instead of going to levels.fyi go to salary.com and choose any major city in the US that is not on the west coast. No most developers don’t get RSUs or anything else aside from their salaries and maybe a bonus. And before someone replies that I’m “bitter”. No I’m good, I’m 50. I did my stint at BigTech and I don’t have the shit tolerance level to deal with the politics of any large company.

tgma 2y ago
You are actually proving my point. If there are 4.8 million developers who are not commanding Meta salaries, and they "pay well" it should be fairly straightforward to get labor. It's simple: the more picky you are the more you will have to pay. The GP admitted the upper bound of Meta, which is a company that is sustainably operating in the same country. If you cannot compete in a labor market, either raise your product pricing or be more efficient. If not, you will make less profit and/or go out of business, which is an appropriate outcome most of the time. No one is entitled to their business model.
- pixl97 2y ago
  I think the other part of the problem is no one in software wants to work in Huntsville. There are numerous reasons why AL sucks.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    There's a ton of reasons to not like AL, but Huntsville is actually pretty decent from what I've seen of it.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Huntsville isn’t the socially liberal (ie we are all people and you do you) oasis like Atlanta, Miami and other major cities in red states. To be clear, I’m not saying all conservatives are evil. I have nothing against the Kemp’s (GA’s governor) and traditional conservatives.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        I totally agree with you, people thinking of moving there should be aware of the politics of the area. But compared to a lot of the rest of Alabama and other stereotypes of the South, it's really a decent place. Definitely not the anti-science, anti-intellectual backwater many might assume. There's a lot of bright people there with interest in aerospace and engineering at all levels. And it's also a college town.
        pixl97 2y ago
        And yet you'll suffer from their policies. Just avoid getting pregnant and have complications, for one example.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I can’t believe that his work is so complicated that he can’t take a good older developer in thier 30s, who would be more than willing to move to a lower cost of living area where they can raise a family affordability and design an internal training program to get them up to speed. Offer things that we care about like free health insurance, “unlimited PTO”, a generous 401K match with immediate vesting, etc. I personally wouldn’t move to Alabama. But many would. At 50, I need to work. But I don’t need to chase after FAANG salaries. I optimize for my other priorities. As I said in my previous post, I’m not “disdaining what I can’t have”. I’ve been there done that.
- calculatte 2y ago
  Given that Meta pays so well, why are they so dependent on H1B? Or google? In 2023 they had a net elimination of 6576 US jobs, but added 5479 H1B. This isn't a simple market issue, these companies are abusing worker visas to replace Americans from their own companies.
JoshTriplett 2y ago
While I'd normally use levels.fyi for more accurate data, since you don't want to rely on that, here's info from glassdoor. Senior: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-senior-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IS11047_KO7,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-senior-software-en... > $178K - $262K/yr Principal: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-principal-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IS11047_KO7,34.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/remote-principal-software... > $269K - $415K/yr > The estimated total pay for a Principal Software Engineer is $329,957 per year in the Remote area, with an average salary of $196,928 per year. These numbers represent the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. The estimated additional pay is $133,029 per year. Additional pay could include cash bonus, commission, tips, and profit sharing. Sounds like the right ballpark. If you're in a location that doesn't pay as well, remote can pay much better.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Exactly how many “remote principal software developer” jobs do you think there are available and that’s a self selected sample and even then they for some reason separate “senior software developer”. Look at salary.com where you can see by cities. None of the BigTech companies have many remote jobs. Google is even requiring their customer facing professional services department to be in certain cities. That was a bridge too far even for AWS.

brookst 2y ago

Yes, because obviously we as a country should prioritize creepy VR avatars over understanding climate change. By this reasoning no charities should exist (they pay less than commercial orgs) and even people who are willing to work for less in order to feel good about their contribution should not be allowed to. It’s a very cynical, even nihilistic view.

tgma 2y ago
> Yes, because obviously we as a country should prioritize creepy VR avatars over understanding climate change. As a country we have decided to let the market decide what to prioritize. Who are we to judge "creepy VR avatars" are less important if people are willing to fair and square pay for them? If they are creepy, don't pay for them. > No charities should exist. No that is not the appropriate conclusion. People are of course free to work for less and balance their circumstances. If they want to volunteer for a charity by choice, more power to them. But no, using taxpayer money to fund "charities" is by-and-large corruption in my book. > It’s a very cynical, even nihilistic view. If we are doing labels, yours is a very communistic, statist, view. -- P.S. regardless of your PoV, I like that you acknowledge my core point: that the OP is seeking special treatment in the form of cheap labor from the US. You are simply arguing for that special treatment being justified, not denying that's the core demand.
- snake42 2y ago
  Profit is not and shouldn't be the primary driver for whats useful economic activity. There is a lot of good work to be done that can't or won't be sustained by the market. Basic scientific research for example.
  - tgma 2y ago
    I mean sure you could argue that, as communists and others perhaps do, for instance, but we are chiefly talking about the US, where individual profit is decided, IMHO correctly, as the primary metric. Sure, you may want to choose to minimally do certain things for national security or other legitimate reasons as the people vote for (as I mentioned in three posts above), but that is supposed to be a deliberate choice of the people and their representatives, driven by their desires, not as an automatic subsidy to any pre-established business, in the form of lax immigration policy which can have second-order effects.

intended 2y ago

IF Meta is the benchmark for “good” pay, then this is nuts. There are far more people who need code, than just the people at FAANG companies. Are you saying that these firms are economically uncompetitive, with META, and should shut shop?

pikclingoil 2y ago
>Are you saying that these firms are economically uncompetitive, with META, and should shut shop? A company with same requirements but not the funding? Absolutely >There are far more people who need code, than just the people at FAANG companies. With different requirements you can find way more people.
- intended 2y ago
  In that case, there is 100% going to be a move to offshoring. Ideally, the industry would relocate outside of the US, to a place where they can be competitive. However, since this defense, they can’t, and will never be competitive. So defense will languish. I guess that’s all I have. I can’t see a way out of the situation if we accept your premise. Defense margins aren’t going to beat social media margins, that too of something like meta. Requirements are requirements. If you need a hammer, scalpels won’t help.
  - tgma 2y ago
    > Defense margins aren’t going to beat social media margins Really? It's the first time I am hearing US is procuring defense for cheap! If there is a margin issue, that's an efficiency problem, i.e. the company is being an idiot or deliberately wasteful/stealing (perhaps due to structural problems like overreliance on cost-plus contracts).
    - intended 2y ago
      This isnt the first time you are hearing that social media margins are better than defense margins. That is a misrepresentation of what was said, and an unkindness to the conversation being had. Tech scales, in a way that manufacturing and physical products dont. I would assume that on HN, this is common knowledge, and that you also are aware of it.