3 ms·

Software is one of the few STEM fields where one can get a fantastic job with just a Bachelor's. In most other engineering fields, a MS gives you a significant

Software is one of the few STEM fields where one can get a fantastic job with just a Bachelor's. In most other engineering fields, a MS gives you a significant boost, and a PhD may do so as well. The reality is that in most of those fields, few Americans get an MS/PhD. Go to a typical engineering department and you'll often see the majority of advanced degree students are foreigners. So it's a question of: Do we want to continue to train foreigners, only to not have them contribute to the US economy? If you move out to the pure sciences, you pretty much need a PhD to get a good career. Once again, a big chunk, if not the majority, are foreigners. Look around at the highly skilled folks you see who are not of US origin, and you'll find most of them are in the US due to the H1-B program (only a tiny percentage come via other programs like the O visa). Yes, H1-B is often abused, but this is the reason it exists. It's a lot harder to get an H1B visa and then permanent residency if your degree is in the humanities, for example.

memtet 2y ago
Ooh yes, let's address next how US top universities are all profit machines incentivized to take as many foreigners as possible, driving up the tuition they can charge so US citizens can't afford to get degrees. Let's do talk about how if you get a part time job to be able to pay for college then they yank your financial aid.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Why taking in foreign students raises the cost of tuition? Aren’t they paying full price for it?
- BeetleB 2y ago
  While foreigners definitely are a cash cow, I think you'll find in STEM fields most foreign PhD students are not paying tuition, but are instead funded by US grants. As for the cost of tuition, there are many, many reasons, and I suspect if you did a PCA, you'll find "raising tuition to milk foreigners" to be of minimal impact. In my state, for example, a local university publicized their finances going back decades, and the increase in tuition has been mirrored by a drop in state support per student. Overall the university is not making more money per student than they were 30 years ago - the only thing that changed is the entity making the payments.
  - pellucide 2y ago
    I am genuinely curious. Do you have a link to the publicized finances
bradlys 2y ago
Isn't it well known that the main reason that most foreigners have advanced degrees is because that's how they get into the country legally in the first place? I don't see many people getting employed straight out of undergrad from India or China and moving to the US directly. They get their advanced degree here first to get into the country then they get employed...
- BeetleB 2y ago
  > Isn't it well known that the main reason that most foreigners have advanced degrees is because that's how they get into the country legally in the first place? Yes, and ...? I mean, if it were a requirement to start a business and employ 10 Americans gainfully, would you go and say "Yeah, but the reason so many foreign born people do that is so they can get in legally." So? As long as they have higher level training than most Americans, and as long as we spend money training them (via research/teaching grants), isn't it a good idea to keep them?
  - bradlys 2y ago
    You're assuming people are really learning anything in those programs that they wouldn't have had in their undergrad. I've never met an American with an undergrad who is underperforming compared to their foreign MS counterparts. The MS is merely a cheaper tool to get into the country than other investment visas plus you get credentialed. I think it's also a bit of a validation tool that the person actually has studied at the same level as US counterparts. I have met some people from India who were surprised at how difficult college was when they came to the US compared to back in India.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      I was surprised at how easy college was in India when I saw the coursework.
    - BeetleB 2y ago
      > I've never met an American with an undergrad who is underperforming compared to their foreign MS counterparts. Outside of SW, not many engineering jobs have a mix of undergrads and MS folks doing the same work, so your sample is extremely biased. > I have met some people from India who were surprised at how difficult college was when they came to the US compared to back in India. And I've met the opposite. Ask folks who went to the top IITs.
stackskipton 2y ago
I think vast majority of Americans not going on to higher education is because system is so screwed up due to debt and unlimited student visas. Debt means most Americans go "I need to enter into the job market so I can pay off these debts". Also, alot of foreign students are willing to work/study insane hours because visa hanging over their head. I have a friend who got MS in Engineering but didn't want to continue because he looked at what's required and started talking with his mentor about his PhD. His mentor said it's 996 schedule and if you don't want to, I can likely find a student visa student who will.
- cuteboy19 2y ago
  foreign students actually subsidize higher education for most universities
- BeetleB 2y ago
  > I think vast majority of Americans not going on to higher education is because system is so screwed up due to debt and unlimited student visas. For undergrad, I understand the frustration, although student visas have almost nothing to do with it. As an example, when I was in my undergrad (for engineering), there was only one foreign student in my engineering classes. Almost all the foreign students were at the MS/PhD level. The number of foreign students in the undergrad population was easily under 5%, if not under 1%. Probably true in most no-name state schools. > Debt means most Americans go "I need to enter into the job market so I can pay off these debts". An MS is only 2 years, and you should go only if it's fully paid for (quite often the case in engineering). And you typically don't accrue interest on undergrad debts for those 2 years - so it's only delaying paying off debts by 2 years. No - most Americans don't do MS in engineering, simply because they don't want to and don't value it. > Also, alot of foreign students are willing to work/study insane hours because visa hanging over their head. I have a friend who got MS in Engineering but didn't want to continue because he looked at what's required and started talking with his mentor about his PhD. His mentor said it's 996 schedule and if you don't want to, I can likely find a student visa student who will. Entirely dependent on the advisor, although I do suspect your anecdote is becoming more common. Also, likely more common at top tier universities and less so in no name state universities.
- 2y ago
charlie0 2y ago
The reason why foreigners get those degrees is because it's a way for them to stay in the USA longer. I have a friend who didn't win a renewal for their H1B and they signed up for a master's program and applied for a different VISA. So yeah, some foreigners get them because their hands are forced.

memtet 2y ago

Ooh yes, let's address next how US top universities are all profit machines incentivized to take as many foreigners as possible, driving up the tuition they can charge so US citizens can't afford to get degrees. Let's do talk about how if you get a part time job to be able to pay for college then they yank your financial aid.

rbanffy 2y ago
Why taking in foreign students raises the cost of tuition? Aren’t they paying full price for it?
BeetleB 2y ago
While foreigners definitely are a cash cow, I think you'll find in STEM fields most foreign PhD students are not paying tuition, but are instead funded by US grants. As for the cost of tuition, there are many, many reasons, and I suspect if you did a PCA, you'll find "raising tuition to milk foreigners" to be of minimal impact. In my state, for example, a local university publicized their finances going back decades, and the increase in tuition has been mirrored by a drop in state support per student. Overall the university is not making more money per student than they were 30 years ago - the only thing that changed is the entity making the payments.
- pellucide 2y ago
  I am genuinely curious. Do you have a link to the publicized finances

bradlys 2y ago

Isn't it well known that the main reason that most foreigners have advanced degrees is because that's how they get into the country legally in the first place? I don't see many people getting employed straight out of undergrad from India or China and moving to the US directly. They get their advanced degree here first to get into the country then they get employed...

BeetleB 2y ago
> Isn't it well known that the main reason that most foreigners have advanced degrees is because that's how they get into the country legally in the first place? Yes, and ...? I mean, if it were a requirement to start a business and employ 10 Americans gainfully, would you go and say "Yeah, but the reason so many foreign born people do that is so they can get in legally." So? As long as they have higher level training than most Americans, and as long as we spend money training them (via research/teaching grants), isn't it a good idea to keep them?
- bradlys 2y ago
  You're assuming people are really learning anything in those programs that they wouldn't have had in their undergrad. I've never met an American with an undergrad who is underperforming compared to their foreign MS counterparts. The MS is merely a cheaper tool to get into the country than other investment visas plus you get credentialed. I think it's also a bit of a validation tool that the person actually has studied at the same level as US counterparts. I have met some people from India who were surprised at how difficult college was when they came to the US compared to back in India.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    I was surprised at how easy college was in India when I saw the coursework.
  - BeetleB 2y ago
    > I've never met an American with an undergrad who is underperforming compared to their foreign MS counterparts. Outside of SW, not many engineering jobs have a mix of undergrads and MS folks doing the same work, so your sample is extremely biased. > I have met some people from India who were surprised at how difficult college was when they came to the US compared to back in India. And I've met the opposite. Ask folks who went to the top IITs.

stackskipton 2y ago

I think vast majority of Americans not going on to higher education is because system is so screwed up due to debt and unlimited student visas. Debt means most Americans go "I need to enter into the job market so I can pay off these debts". Also, alot of foreign students are willing to work/study insane hours because visa hanging over their head. I have a friend who got MS in Engineering but didn't want to continue because he looked at what's required and started talking with his mentor about his PhD. His mentor said it's 996 schedule and if you don't want to, I can likely find a student visa student who will.

cuteboy19 2y ago
foreign students actually subsidize higher education for most universities
BeetleB 2y ago
> I think vast majority of Americans not going on to higher education is because system is so screwed up due to debt and unlimited student visas. For undergrad, I understand the frustration, although student visas have almost nothing to do with it. As an example, when I was in my undergrad (for engineering), there was only one foreign student in my engineering classes. Almost all the foreign students were at the MS/PhD level. The number of foreign students in the undergrad population was easily under 5%, if not under 1%. Probably true in most no-name state schools. > Debt means most Americans go "I need to enter into the job market so I can pay off these debts". An MS is only 2 years, and you should go only if it's fully paid for (quite often the case in engineering). And you typically don't accrue interest on undergrad debts for those 2 years - so it's only delaying paying off debts by 2 years. No - most Americans don't do MS in engineering, simply because they don't want to and don't value it. > Also, alot of foreign students are willing to work/study insane hours because visa hanging over their head. I have a friend who got MS in Engineering but didn't want to continue because he looked at what's required and started talking with his mentor about his PhD. His mentor said it's 996 schedule and if you don't want to, I can likely find a student visa student who will. Entirely dependent on the advisor, although I do suspect your anecdote is becoming more common. Also, likely more common at top tier universities and less so in no name state universities.
2y ago

charlie0 2y ago

The reason why foreigners get those degrees is because it's a way for them to stay in the USA longer. I have a friend who didn't win a renewal for their H1B and they signed up for a master's program and applied for a different VISA. So yeah, some foreigners get them because their hands are forced.