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For people concerned about mass surveillance, what is your biggest worry? Worry #1: People who wish to avoid mass surveillance aren't able to do so, because th

For people concerned about mass surveillance, what is your biggest worry? Worry #1: People who wish to avoid mass surveillance aren't able to do so, because the tools available for fighting it (such as Tor, Signal, etc.) aren't sufficiently powerful Worry #2: Although the tools for avoiding mass surveillance are powerful, not enough people are adopting them Worry #3: Something else I have my own answer, but I'm curious what others will say.

lubujackson 2y ago
To me, it is a boiling frog situation where each incremental loss of privacy is no big deal and nobody is actually looking at my data in particular so I don't care at all about that. And I don't care about my own privacy beyond any average person and I don't use any tools to hide my identity or whatever. The worry is not a personal one, or even a systemic one, but a concern over the general direction of data availability and societal fragility. Take, for example, the drone scare in NJ right now. The problem isn't what the drones are doing but the potential they have to do any number of harmful or invasive things. Right now I can go to Costco and buy a drone with an HD camera and hover it outside your bedroom window. Or have it sprinkle anthrax on your head when you walk outside your apartment. The problem is that technological advancement far outpaces our ability to reason or control its usage effectively. Regulation lags misuse and eventually something (drones, nanobots, whatever) is going to lead to a massive and irreversible calamity before we change our starry-eyed rush to embrace the "new". Sometimes I think the Amish have the right approach, though a little extreme. They aren't 100% anti-technology but meet every year to vote on if something new should be adopted, only after considering all negatives and secondary effects. I am a realist, though, so I just live my life and brace for the eventual impact.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  > The problem is that technological advancement far outpaces our ability to reason or control its usage effectively. Regulation lags misuse and eventually something (drones, nanobots, whatever) is going to lead to a massive and irreversible calamity before we change our starry-eyed rush to embrace the "new". To paraphrase Lord Of The Rings, those who have no drones can still die by them. As long as drones are being made in China or Iran or anywhere in the world, a terrorist/non-state actor/motivated assassin/special ops unit can get them and use them against you. Banning them in the US may slow this down, slightly, but it won't prevent it.
  - belthesar 2y ago
    I hear this argument often times when relating to gun laws in the US as a defense for the status quo, and yet the US continues to have the second highest gun deaths per capita. I can’t say that this argument is fallacious because of that parallel, but it does end up being a weaker argument in my eyes because of it. There has to be another option besides letting the arms race continue unchecked. That’s the only option that, in my opinion, ensures that we all lose.
int_19h 2y ago
The tools, even if made illegal (which I think is inevitable long term) will still be there. My worry is that avoiding mass surveillance will require the level of disengagement from society that is too extreme to be sustainable for the vast majority of people concerned about said surveillance. And I would further argue that this is already the case.
unethical_ban 2y ago
All. And I'm worried about AI making it easier for governments to basically have infinite, "intelligent" eyes and ears on every camera and conversation being recorded. There won't be such a thing as being unnoticed.
evanjrowley 2y ago
In terms of tools, my outlook is optimistic. I feel like worries #1 and #2 being mitigated by tools that enable E2EE in spaces where it was not available before. Examples include CryptPad[0] for office productivity, Ente[1] for photos, and Joplin[3] as a full-featured notes app supporting encryption. In the category of common everyday tools, I'd like to see more E2EE options for managing bookmarks across browsers. Additionally, I would like to see more E2EE applications competing with popular SaaS offerings. It scares me to think of the potential damage that could come from a breach of ServiceNow, Atlassian, and any other SaaS where businesses expect to store private information. Given the US governments' proclivity to declare economic sectors as "critical infrastructure" plus recent incidents[3][4] affecting major cloud services, we can only expect increased levels of scrutiny over SaaS security. Living in the US, my primary worry about mass surveillance is less about the technology or the adpotion. I'm fortunate to live in a place where there is a low risk of violence due to authoritarian use of mass surveillance. My primary concern is the effects surveillance has on our collective decision making. The idea that we have less free will because surveillance keeps powerful instututions one step ahead of individuals is the topmost concern for me. I.e., the ending message of Metal Gear Solid 2[5]. [0] https://cryptpad.fr/ https://cryptpad.fr/ [1] https://ente.io/ https://ente.io/ [2] https://joplinapp.org/help/apps/sync/e2ee/ https://joplinapp.org/help/apps/sync/e2ee/ [3] https://www.npr.org/2023/07/12/1187208383/china-hack-us-government-microsoft https://www.npr.org/2023/07/12/1187208383/china-hack-us-gove... [4] https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/01/microsoft-network-breached-through-password-spraying-by-russian-state-hackers/ https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/01/microsoft-network-b... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIYBod0ge3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIYBod0ge3Y
BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Im worried that unpopular governments can entrench power using it, as is attempted in china.

lubujackson 2y ago

To me, it is a boiling frog situation where each incremental loss of privacy is no big deal and nobody is actually looking at my data in particular so I don't care at all about that. And I don't care about my own privacy beyond any average person and I don't use any tools to hide my identity or whatever. The worry is not a personal one, or even a systemic one, but a concern over the general direction of data availability and societal fragility. Take, for example, the drone scare in NJ right now. The problem isn't what the drones are doing but the potential they have to do any number of harmful or invasive things. Right now I can go to Costco and buy a drone with an HD camera and hover it outside your bedroom window. Or have it sprinkle anthrax on your head when you walk outside your apartment. The problem is that technological advancement far outpaces our ability to reason or control its usage effectively. Regulation lags misuse and eventually something (drones, nanobots, whatever) is going to lead to a massive and irreversible calamity before we change our starry-eyed rush to embrace the "new". Sometimes I think the Amish have the right approach, though a little extreme. They aren't 100% anti-technology but meet every year to vote on if something new should be adopted, only after considering all negatives and secondary effects. I am a realist, though, so I just live my life and brace for the eventual impact.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
> The problem is that technological advancement far outpaces our ability to reason or control its usage effectively. Regulation lags misuse and eventually something (drones, nanobots, whatever) is going to lead to a massive and irreversible calamity before we change our starry-eyed rush to embrace the "new". To paraphrase Lord Of The Rings, those who have no drones can still die by them. As long as drones are being made in China or Iran or anywhere in the world, a terrorist/non-state actor/motivated assassin/special ops unit can get them and use them against you. Banning them in the US may slow this down, slightly, but it won't prevent it.
- belthesar 2y ago
  I hear this argument often times when relating to gun laws in the US as a defense for the status quo, and yet the US continues to have the second highest gun deaths per capita. I can’t say that this argument is fallacious because of that parallel, but it does end up being a weaker argument in my eyes because of it. There has to be another option besides letting the arms race continue unchecked. That’s the only option that, in my opinion, ensures that we all lose.

int_19h 2y ago

The tools, even if made illegal (which I think is inevitable long term) will still be there. My worry is that avoiding mass surveillance will require the level of disengagement from society that is too extreme to be sustainable for the vast majority of people concerned about said surveillance. And I would further argue that this is already the case.

unethical_ban 2y ago

All. And I'm worried about AI making it easier for governments to basically have infinite, "intelligent" eyes and ears on every camera and conversation being recorded. There won't be such a thing as being unnoticed.

evanjrowley 2y ago

In terms of tools, my outlook is optimistic. I feel like worries #1 and #2 being mitigated by tools that enable E2EE in spaces where it was not available before. Examples include CryptPad[0] for office productivity, Ente[1] for photos, and Joplin[3] as a full-featured notes app supporting encryption. In the category of common everyday tools, I'd like to see more E2EE options for managing bookmarks across browsers. Additionally, I would like to see more E2EE applications competing with popular SaaS offerings. It scares me to think of the potential damage that could come from a breach of ServiceNow, Atlassian, and any other SaaS where businesses expect to store private information. Given the US governments' proclivity to declare economic sectors as "critical infrastructure" plus recent incidents[3][4] affecting major cloud services, we can only expect increased levels of scrutiny over SaaS security. Living in the US, my primary worry about mass surveillance is less about the technology or the adpotion. I'm fortunate to live in a place where there is a low risk of violence due to authoritarian use of mass surveillance. My primary concern is the effects surveillance has on our collective decision making. The idea that we have less free will because surveillance keeps powerful instututions one step ahead of individuals is the topmost concern for me. I.e., the ending message of Metal Gear Solid 2[5]. [0] https://cryptpad.fr/ https://cryptpad.fr/ [1] https://ente.io/ https://ente.io/ [2] https://joplinapp.org/help/apps/sync/e2ee/ https://joplinapp.org/help/apps/sync/e2ee/ [3] https://www.npr.org/2023/07/12/1187208383/china-hack-us-government-microsoft https://www.npr.org/2023/07/12/1187208383/china-hack-us-gove... [4] https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/01/microsoft-network-breached-through-password-spraying-by-russian-state-hackers/ https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/01/microsoft-network-b... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIYBod0ge3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIYBod0ge3Y

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago

Im worried that unpopular governments can entrench power using it, as is attempted in china.