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Something being unfamiliar doesn't make it worse. Or better necessarily, but it seems noteworthy that your frustration is with a feature designed to make it pos

Something being unfamiliar doesn't make it worse. Or better necessarily, but it seems noteworthy that your frustration is with a feature designed to make it possible to drag draggable things around without losing them if your finger leaves the trackpad for an instant. > Or why does Apple insist on having a non-standard keyboard in Germany, This: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXCL3D/A/magic-keyboard-usb-c-german https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXCL3D/A/magic-keyboard-u... Appears to my eye to match this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout Precisely. I just switched to the german layout, which has some amusing consequences for words like layout, but: []{}~, looks like everything is where Wikipedia says that a T1 German layout should put things. What's the complaint exactly? Because it's not that the keyboard is nonstandard, is it? If you'd rather use another layout, you very easily can, right? I mean, I just did.

klausa 2y ago
FWIW, that is a thing that Apple actually gets wrong a bit across the world. The default layout for Macs sold in Poland is also nonsensical — it's "technically" more correct, and maps closer to what the typewriters looked like (I think?); but it is a layout that literally nobody else uses. I don't think I could easily find a non-Apple keyboard with that layout in Poland if I tried.
- reddalo 2y ago
  Old Italian Macs used a classical QZERTY keyboard, like typewriters, but no other computer keyboard uses that layout. Normal computer keyboards use QWERTY (plus some accented letters). Luckily, Apple switched to that layout for Italian keyboards many years ago.
seedie 2y ago
What they mean is that on a standard german keyboard layout to type []{}~ one would press [ Alt Gr-8 ] Alt Gr-9 { Alt Gr 7 } Alt Gr 0 ~ Alt Gr + While on an Apple keyboard you use [ ⌥-5 ] ⌥-6 { ⌥-8 } ⌥-9 ~ ⌥-n
- dcrazy 2y ago
  Don’t confuse “standard” with “what IBM and Microsoft implemented in the 80s”.
- samatman 2y ago
  I just tested the German – Standard layout on a Mac, it's the first one you indicate. Apple calls right-⌥ the Compose key, not AltGr, but works the same way, other than being transposed with the Command key from the familiar Windows style of layout. There's also a keyboard layout just called German, maybe that one works the way you refer to? But surely it's not too much to ask that someone select the keyboard style they're accustomed to using?
JoshTriplett 2y ago
> it seems noteworthy that your frustration is with a feature designed to make it possible to drag draggable things around without losing them if your finger leaves the trackpad for an instant. I agree with your point that "unfamiliar" is not "better" or "worse". But I will observe that much engineering, and much pushing of new mental models on users, has gone into working around the unwillingness to have mouse buttons. With no mouse buttons: "double-tap-and-drag, release, possible delay on release for possible finger repositioning" With mouse buttons: "click, drag, release" Both models can work, but I marvel at the proposition of preferring the former.
- samatman 2y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about here. To drag and drop something on the Mac, you: click it, drag it, and release it. Are you... under the impression that Macs don't have, clicking?
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    Based both on macOS documentation and on the experiences of people who use macOS: > without Drag Lock: Double-tap an item, then drag it without lifting your finger after the second tap; dragging stops immediately when you lift your finger. > with Drag Lock: Double-tap an item, then drag it without lifting your finger after the second tap; dragging continues when you lift your finger, and stops only when you tap the trackpad once. > three finger drag: Drag an item with three fingers; dragging stops immediately when you lift your fingers. It may well be that with current mac systems that have "force touch", it might be possible (or necessary) to replace some of those steps with "press hard". I stand by my statement that this is a lot of engineering and a lot of user adaptation in order to not have mouse buttons.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - ant6n 2y ago
    > To drag and drop something on the Mac, you: click it, drag it, and release it. It's not true. On windows/linux: tap, release, tap, drag, release On MacOs: tap, release, tap, drag, release, wait When moving back and forth between windows/linux and MacOs, and after working for 20 years with windows, that "wait" isn't built in into finger-memory. So if you "move on" with the next actions, it means that you'll drag whatever you were dragging to the next button. It's simply a very unrefined interaction.
ant6n 2y ago
> This: > https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXCL3D/A/magic-keyboard-u https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXCL3D/A/magic-keyboard-u... > Appears to my eye to match this: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout Not it does not. On the default German MacOs keyboard, keys are moved compared to the standard layout, in particular the braces and brackets (used for you know, coding): 5 6 7 8 9 0 ß - unmodified [ ] | | { } ≠ - with option on Mac { [ ] } - with alt on windows The tilde is also moved, and the at-sign. You can claim "change is good", "why do you need to show keys on the keyboard, just memorize them" [1] and "you're holding it wrong", but then why at the same time fawn over Apple's supposedly super-refined interaction design. [1] my wife, moving from linux/english to MacOs/German for work, actually uses a desktop background of the full keyboard layout, to help her find the hidden keys.

klausa 2y ago

FWIW, that is a thing that Apple actually gets wrong a bit across the world. The default layout for Macs sold in Poland is also nonsensical — it's "technically" more correct, and maps closer to what the typewriters looked like (I think?); but it is a layout that literally nobody else uses. I don't think I could easily find a non-Apple keyboard with that layout in Poland if I tried.

reddalo 2y ago
Old Italian Macs used a classical QZERTY keyboard, like typewriters, but no other computer keyboard uses that layout. Normal computer keyboards use QWERTY (plus some accented letters). Luckily, Apple switched to that layout for Italian keyboards many years ago.

seedie 2y ago

What they mean is that on a standard german keyboard layout to type []{}~ one would press [ Alt Gr-8 ] Alt Gr-9 { Alt Gr 7 } Alt Gr 0 ~ Alt Gr + While on an Apple keyboard you use [ ⌥-5 ] ⌥-6 { ⌥-8 } ⌥-9 ~ ⌥-n

dcrazy 2y ago
Don’t confuse “standard” with “what IBM and Microsoft implemented in the 80s”.
samatman 2y ago
I just tested the German – Standard layout on a Mac, it's the first one you indicate. Apple calls right-⌥ the Compose key, not AltGr, but works the same way, other than being transposed with the Command key from the familiar Windows style of layout. There's also a keyboard layout just called German, maybe that one works the way you refer to? But surely it's not too much to ask that someone select the keyboard style they're accustomed to using?

JoshTriplett 2y ago

> it seems noteworthy that your frustration is with a feature designed to make it possible to drag draggable things around without losing them if your finger leaves the trackpad for an instant. I agree with your point that "unfamiliar" is not "better" or "worse". But I will observe that much engineering, and much pushing of new mental models on users, has gone into working around the unwillingness to have mouse buttons. With no mouse buttons: "double-tap-and-drag, release, possible delay on release for possible finger repositioning" With mouse buttons: "click, drag, release" Both models can work, but I marvel at the proposition of preferring the former.

samatman 2y ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. To drag and drop something on the Mac, you: click it, drag it, and release it. Are you... under the impression that Macs don't have, clicking?
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  Based both on macOS documentation and on the experiences of people who use macOS: > without Drag Lock: Double-tap an item, then drag it without lifting your finger after the second tap; dragging stops immediately when you lift your finger. > with Drag Lock: Double-tap an item, then drag it without lifting your finger after the second tap; dragging continues when you lift your finger, and stops only when you tap the trackpad once. > three finger drag: Drag an item with three fingers; dragging stops immediately when you lift your fingers. It may well be that with current mac systems that have "force touch", it might be possible (or necessary) to replace some of those steps with "press hard". I stand by my statement that this is a lot of engineering and a lot of user adaptation in order to not have mouse buttons.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- ant6n 2y ago
  > To drag and drop something on the Mac, you: click it, drag it, and release it. It's not true. On windows/linux: tap, release, tap, drag, release On MacOs: tap, release, tap, drag, release, wait When moving back and forth between windows/linux and MacOs, and after working for 20 years with windows, that "wait" isn't built in into finger-memory. So if you "move on" with the next actions, it means that you'll drag whatever you were dragging to the next button. It's simply a very unrefined interaction.

ant6n 2y ago

> This: > https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXCL3D/A/magic-keyboard-u https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXCL3D/A/magic-keyboard-u... > Appears to my eye to match this: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout Not it does not. On the default German MacOs keyboard, keys are moved compared to the standard layout, in particular the braces and brackets (used for you know, coding): 5 6 7 8 9 0 ß - unmodified [ ] | | { } ≠ - with option on Mac { [ ] } - with alt on windows The tilde is also moved, and the at-sign. You can claim "change is good", "why do you need to show keys on the keyboard, just memorize them" [1] and "you're holding it wrong", but then why at the same time fawn over Apple's supposedly super-refined interaction design. [1] my wife, moving from linux/english to MacOs/German for work, actually uses a desktop background of the full keyboard layout, to help her find the hidden keys.