6 ms·

I had a long drive where I listened to The Great Courses, which had a set on early Christianity. I think the professor was from Notre Dame. The early church was

I had a long drive where I listened to The Great Courses, which had a set on early Christianity. I think the professor was from Notre Dame. The early church was wrestling with polytheism (is the OT god seemed really different from the NT god) and it eventually had to get resolved by the Council at Nicaea at Constantine's behest.

dragonwriter 2y ago
Note that to non-Christian monotheists, the Christian resolution of that problem is often seen as polytheism with circumlocution.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  This arises from a confusion of multiplication 1x1x1 with addition 1+1+1 in the abstraction of facets of truth.
  - sorokod 2y ago
    A neat analogy but aren't those 1s actually distinct from each other in your religion?
    - AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
      [dead]
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      Is there more than one way to reference the same truth?
      - sorokod 2y ago
        Maybe, does the Trimurti represent that same truth? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti
papandada 2y ago
I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.
- kibwen 2y ago
  Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right.
  - 3pt14159 2y ago
    > is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right. I don't really think so. We're supposed to pray with Mary to God and everyone recognizes that all of creation came through Christ, not Mary or any other saint.
    - JackFr 2y ago
      As Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle at the wedding at Cana, for the said of her friend, we too are called to pray to ask Mary to intercede for us for our intentions.
      - kibwen 2y ago
        Yes, with "saint" I wasn't even trying to invoke a discussion involving Mary at all, because in practice she's so far above the saints that to equate them feels like heresy (and might literally be heresy in some contexts; hyperdulia vs. dulia and all). In practice the absolute adulation of Mary is such that she nearly feels like the fourth member of the trinity.
mistrial9 2y ago
this seems like a sideways retelling of the "Gospels of Thomas" stories.. this is a nuanced topic and shrouded by history.. Suffice it to say that intellectuals and pious people knew very well the cults of Apollo, astrology of High Priests, nature worship, Egyptian deism, goddess worship, and pantheonism while the Christian scriptures were solidifying as a social blueprint.

dragonwriter 2y ago

Note that to non-Christian monotheists, the Christian resolution of that problem is often seen as polytheism with circumlocution.

mensetmanusman 2y ago
This arises from a confusion of multiplication 1x1x1 with addition 1+1+1 in the abstraction of facets of truth.
- sorokod 2y ago
  A neat analogy but aren't those 1s actually distinct from each other in your religion?
  - AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
    [dead]
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Is there more than one way to reference the same truth?
    - sorokod 2y ago
      Maybe, does the Trimurti represent that same truth? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti

papandada 2y ago

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

kibwen 2y ago
Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right.
- 3pt14159 2y ago
  > is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right. I don't really think so. We're supposed to pray with Mary to God and everyone recognizes that all of creation came through Christ, not Mary or any other saint.
  - JackFr 2y ago
    As Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle at the wedding at Cana, for the said of her friend, we too are called to pray to ask Mary to intercede for us for our intentions.
    - kibwen 2y ago
      Yes, with "saint" I wasn't even trying to invoke a discussion involving Mary at all, because in practice she's so far above the saints that to equate them feels like heresy (and might literally be heresy in some contexts; hyperdulia vs. dulia and all). In practice the absolute adulation of Mary is such that she nearly feels like the fourth member of the trinity.

mistrial9 2y ago

this seems like a sideways retelling of the "Gospels of Thomas" stories.. this is a nuanced topic and shrouded by history.. Suffice it to say that intellectuals and pious people knew very well the cults of Apollo, astrology of High Priests, nature worship, Egyptian deism, goddess worship, and pantheonism while the Christian scriptures were solidifying as a social blueprint.