4 ms·

To summarize this comment chain, the initial argument is 'passkeys are not impervious to all attacks therefore they are security theater' vs 'passkeys help sign

by w0m 2y ago

To summarize this comment chain, the initial argument is 'passkeys are not impervious to all attacks therefore they are security theater' vs 'passkeys help significantly in the most common attacks, therefore they are worthwhile.' Statistics are hard. People have a bad habit of seeing 'not 100% fullproof' and thinking that said something is therefore worthless. Same senseless argument people made in the 80s against wearing seatbelts, and 4 years ago thinking it was a legitimate argument against wearing masks in the middle of a pandemic.

afiori 2y ago
I believe that the crux of it is that password managers with autocomplete already have about the same level of protection and are both more flexible and have less lock-in passkeys imho are being pushed because: 1) a lot of people will not use a (good) password manager 2) it allows more lock-in for the providers (ios/android/1password/etc.)
- tptacek 2y ago
  To a first approximation no normal person uses a password manager (people find them extraordinarily hard to use; source: did trainings with a bunch of different cohorts), and the two solutions do not have "about the same level of protection". I watched a fintech company try to get people to stop relaying credentials through SMS with scammers, and that problem was practically insurmountable. I do not believe "autofill" is the fool-proof defense you think it is.
- vel0city 2y ago
  > have about the same level of protection They don't > have less lock-in I have physical security tokens from multiple vendors which support passkeys. I have Windows machines with passkeys. I have Android devices with passkeys. Tell me again how it is a vendor lock-in? I'm not seeing it.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Generally people who assert that Passkeys are "lockin" also object to the notion of using a Google account as your primary online identity. Of course, you don't have to, but that's the concern: a world where they will have to. (You should use a Google account as your primary online identity, unless you have religious reasons not to. Back up your authenticators, set up back up accounts, all that stuff; Google doesn't want you locked out any more than you do, because that requires them to attempt customer service, so they have a bunch of tools here.)
    - trinsic2 2y ago
      It's not an assertion. It's a fact. You need to be in control of the auth method or you can be controlled through it, plain and simple. People that by into systems they don't control are shooting themselves in the foot because, when push comes to shove, a for-profit company will always chose profit over individually choice. It's short sighted to think otherwise.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        Yeah that's great, I don't subscribe to that particular religion but respect your beliefs. I think most people are best served having their primary online identity be a Google account, for multiple reasons. I'm aware that a vocal contingent of technologists on HN find that take appalling, but I assure you, my take is a normie take, and also the modal take among security people. Either way: Passkeys themselves don't require you to use Google, or any particular big tech firm. It's an open protocol.
        soraminazuki 2y ago
        "A dad took photos of his toddler for a doctor – Google flagged him as a criminal" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538805 This was more than two years ago. Despite the title, many parents are victims to this. To this very day, Google continues to defame them and deny access to their accounts. Long after the police cleared these victims' names. Long after the NYT confronted Google about this. So is this what "normies" should be subject to? A digital totalitarian hellscape in which a trillion dollar advertising giant rummages through people's digital lives, randomly takes away their entire digital identity every time their flawed cyber-oracle tells them to, and uses their vast corporate resources to harass and defame? That's not a world I want to live in. I don't want anyone to be subject to that kind of tyranny. It's not about any "religious belief," but rather basic human decency.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    All the big implementations are locked into some big player. Like MS, Apple, Google. And the real independent implementations like bitwarden are often blocked by sites like PayPal does.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > All the big implementations are locked into some big player Often repeated. Doesn't make it true. As mentioned, I've got passkeys for services registered on multiple brands of physical authenticators and several platforms.
      - wkat4242 2y ago
        Which ones then? Using yubikey means enrolling multiple of them as backup which a lot of sites don't allow. Other implementations are often blocked, eg on paypal I've never been able to do it and they also only allow one. The big tech ones don't have these issues but I won't use them because I want to keep control.
        vel0city 2y ago
        > a lot of sites don't allow. About the only site I've come across that still only limits a single authenticator is the only one you've already mentioned. If I pointed out a site that only allowed five character upper case passwords with no lockout policy and really fast responses is that also proof passwords are completely untenable? Or just one actor with poor policy decisions And in the end one can just choose to not use passkeys with sites like PayPal. But the extreme majority I've used allowed multiple, as that's what the specifications recommended. In the end you can use passkeys without involving Google or Microsoft or Apple at all. Any argument that passkeys lock you into their platforms isn't based in reality and are repeating untruths. You don't need to use them to use passkeys.
        tmerc 2y ago
        Just gonna point out that AWS IAM only started allowing multiple 2fa devices 2 years ago. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-multiple-mfa-devices-in-iam/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-mul... It's entirely possible that many sites shared this flaw.
- trinsic2 2y ago
  Yeah I agree. I'm not interested in being locked into an ecosystem I don't control. I want my authentications to be reliablely tied to my choices and actions. Not some system that has a for-profit motive to tie me into a system that does not work to my benefit.

by w0m 2y ago

afiori 2y ago

I believe that the crux of it is that password managers with autocomplete already have about the same level of protection and are both more flexible and have less lock-in passkeys imho are being pushed because: 1) a lot of people will not use a (good) password manager 2) it allows more lock-in for the providers (ios/android/1password/etc.)

tptacek 2y ago
To a first approximation no normal person uses a password manager (people find them extraordinarily hard to use; source: did trainings with a bunch of different cohorts), and the two solutions do not have "about the same level of protection". I watched a fintech company try to get people to stop relaying credentials through SMS with scammers, and that problem was practically insurmountable. I do not believe "autofill" is the fool-proof defense you think it is.
vel0city 2y ago
> have about the same level of protection They don't > have less lock-in I have physical security tokens from multiple vendors which support passkeys. I have Windows machines with passkeys. I have Android devices with passkeys. Tell me again how it is a vendor lock-in? I'm not seeing it.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Generally people who assert that Passkeys are "lockin" also object to the notion of using a Google account as your primary online identity. Of course, you don't have to, but that's the concern: a world where they will have to. (You should use a Google account as your primary online identity, unless you have religious reasons not to. Back up your authenticators, set up back up accounts, all that stuff; Google doesn't want you locked out any more than you do, because that requires them to attempt customer service, so they have a bunch of tools here.)
  - trinsic2 2y ago
    It's not an assertion. It's a fact. You need to be in control of the auth method or you can be controlled through it, plain and simple. People that by into systems they don't control are shooting themselves in the foot because, when push comes to shove, a for-profit company will always chose profit over individually choice. It's short sighted to think otherwise.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      Yeah that's great, I don't subscribe to that particular religion but respect your beliefs. I think most people are best served having their primary online identity be a Google account, for multiple reasons. I'm aware that a vocal contingent of technologists on HN find that take appalling, but I assure you, my take is a normie take, and also the modal take among security people. Either way: Passkeys themselves don't require you to use Google, or any particular big tech firm. It's an open protocol.
      - soraminazuki 2y ago
        "A dad took photos of his toddler for a doctor – Google flagged him as a criminal" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538805 This was more than two years ago. Despite the title, many parents are victims to this. To this very day, Google continues to defame them and deny access to their accounts. Long after the police cleared these victims' names. Long after the NYT confronted Google about this. So is this what "normies" should be subject to? A digital totalitarian hellscape in which a trillion dollar advertising giant rummages through people's digital lives, randomly takes away their entire digital identity every time their flawed cyber-oracle tells them to, and uses their vast corporate resources to harass and defame? That's not a world I want to live in. I don't want anyone to be subject to that kind of tyranny. It's not about any "religious belief," but rather basic human decency.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  All the big implementations are locked into some big player. Like MS, Apple, Google. And the real independent implementations like bitwarden are often blocked by sites like PayPal does.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > All the big implementations are locked into some big player Often repeated. Doesn't make it true. As mentioned, I've got passkeys for services registered on multiple brands of physical authenticators and several platforms.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      Which ones then? Using yubikey means enrolling multiple of them as backup which a lot of sites don't allow. Other implementations are often blocked, eg on paypal I've never been able to do it and they also only allow one. The big tech ones don't have these issues but I won't use them because I want to keep control.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        > a lot of sites don't allow. About the only site I've come across that still only limits a single authenticator is the only one you've already mentioned. If I pointed out a site that only allowed five character upper case passwords with no lockout policy and really fast responses is that also proof passwords are completely untenable? Or just one actor with poor policy decisions And in the end one can just choose to not use passkeys with sites like PayPal. But the extreme majority I've used allowed multiple, as that's what the specifications recommended. In the end you can use passkeys without involving Google or Microsoft or Apple at all. Any argument that passkeys lock you into their platforms isn't based in reality and are repeating untruths. You don't need to use them to use passkeys.
        tmerc 2y ago
        Just gonna point out that AWS IAM only started allowing multiple 2fa devices 2 years ago. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-multiple-mfa-devices-in-iam/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-mul... It's entirely possible that many sites shared this flaw.
trinsic2 2y ago
Yeah I agree. I'm not interested in being locked into an ecosystem I don't control. I want my authentications to be reliablely tied to my choices and actions. Not some system that has a for-profit motive to tie me into a system that does not work to my benefit.