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The cognitive dissonance of seemingly educated people defending the LLMs when it comes to writing code is my top mystery for the entirety of 2024. Call me if y

The cognitive dissonance of seemingly educated people defending the LLMs when it comes to writing code is my top mystery for the entirety of 2024. Call me if you find a good reason. I still have not.

sigmarule 2y ago
Genuine question: how hard have you tried to find a good reason?
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Obviously not very hard. And looking at the blatant and unproven claims on HN gave me the view that the proponents are not interested in giving proof; they simply want to silence anyone who disagrees LLMs are useful for programming.
jayd16 2y ago
The short answer is they're trying to sell it.
- richardw 2y ago
  And it’s the short wrong answer. I get absolutely zero benefit if you or anyone else uses it. This is not for you or I, it’s for young people who don’t know what to do. I’m a person who uses a few LLM’s, and I do so because I see the risks and want to participate rather than have change imposed on me.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    OK, do that. Seems like a case of FOMO to me but it might very well turn out that you're right and I'm wrong. However, that's absolutely not clear today.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Agreed, but I can't imagine that everybody here on HN that's defending LLMs so... misguidedly and obviously ignoring observable reality... are financially interested in LLMs' success, can they?
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    I’m financially interested in Anthropic being successfull since it means their prices are more likely to go down, or for their models to get (even) better. Honestly, if you don’t think it works for you, that’s fine with me. I just feel the dismissive attitude is weird since it’s so incredibly useful to me.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      Why is it weird, exactly? I don't write throwaway projects so the mostly one-off nature of LLM code generation is not useful to me. And I'm not the only one either. If you can give examples of incredible usefulness then that can advance the discussion. Otherwise it's just us trying to out-shout each other, and I'm not interested in that.
    - Macha 2y ago
      Given they're a VC backed company rushing to claim market share and apparently selling well below cost, it's not clear that that will be the case. Compare the ride share companies for one case where prices went up once they were successful.
  - jprete 2y ago
    It's a message board frequented by extremely tech-involved people. I'd expect the vast majority of people here to have some financial interest in LLMs - big-tech equity, direct employment, AI startup, AI influencer, or whatever.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      Yeah, very likely. It's the new gold rush, and they are commanding wages that make me drool (and also make me want to howl in pain and agony and envy but hey, let's not mention the obvious, shall we?). I always forget the name of that law but... it's hard to make somebody understand something if their salary depends on them not understanding it.
bdangubic 2y ago
but that’s thing, right? it is not “seemingly” there are A LOT of highly educated people here telling you LLMs are doing amazing shit for them - perhaps a wise response should be “lemme go back and see whether it can also become part of my own toolbox…” I have spent 24 years coding without LLMs, cannot fathom now spending more than a day without it…
- pdimitar 2y ago
  I have tried them a few times but they were only good at generating a few snippets. If you have scrutable and interesting examples, I am willing to look them up and try to apply them to my work.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  Which needs does it fulfil that you weren't able to fulfil yourself? (Advance prediction: these are needs that would be fulfilled better by improvements to conventional tooling.)
shiveenp 2y ago
In my opinion people that harp on about how LLMs have been game changer for them are the people that put themselves as never actually having built anything sophisticated enough that a team of engineers can work and extend on for years.
- LouisSayers 2y ago
  "Game changer" maybe. But what you'll probably find is that people that are skilled communicators are currently getting a decent productivity boost from LLMs, and I suspect that the difference between many that are bullish vs bearish is quite likely coming down to ability to structure and communicate thoughts effectively. Personally, I've found AI to be a large productivity boost - especially once I've put certain patterns and structure into code. It's then like hitting the N2O button on the keyboard. Sure, there are people making toy apps using LLMs that are going to quickly become a unmaintainable mess, but don't be too quick to assume that LLMs aren't already making an impact within production systems. I know from experience that they are.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    > I suspect that the difference between many that are bullish vs bearish is quite likely coming down to ability to structure and communicate thoughts effectively. Strange perspective. I found LLMs lacking in less popular programming languages, for example. It's mostly down to statistics. I agree that being able to communicate well with an LLM gives you more results. It's a productivity enabler of sorts. It is not a game changer however. > don't be too quick to assume that LLMs aren't already making an impact within production systems. I know from experience that they are. OK, I am open to proof. But people are just saying it and leaving the claims hanging.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Yep, as cynical and demeaning that must sound to them, I am arriving at the same conclusion.
  - Me001 2y ago

The cognitive dissonance of seemingly educated people defending the LLMs when it comes to writing code is my top mystery for the entirety of 2024. Call me if you find a good reason. I still have not.

sigmarule 2y ago

Genuine question: how hard have you tried to find a good reason?

pdimitar 2y ago
Obviously not very hard. And looking at the blatant and unproven claims on HN gave me the view that the proponents are not interested in giving proof; they simply want to silence anyone who disagrees LLMs are useful for programming.

jayd16 2y ago

The short answer is they're trying to sell it.

richardw 2y ago
And it’s the short wrong answer. I get absolutely zero benefit if you or anyone else uses it. This is not for you or I, it’s for young people who don’t know what to do. I’m a person who uses a few LLM’s, and I do so because I see the risks and want to participate rather than have change imposed on me.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  OK, do that. Seems like a case of FOMO to me but it might very well turn out that you're right and I'm wrong. However, that's absolutely not clear today.
pdimitar 2y ago
Agreed, but I can't imagine that everybody here on HN that's defending LLMs so... misguidedly and obviously ignoring observable reality... are financially interested in LLMs' success, can they?
- Aeolun 2y ago
  I’m financially interested in Anthropic being successfull since it means their prices are more likely to go down, or for their models to get (even) better. Honestly, if you don’t think it works for you, that’s fine with me. I just feel the dismissive attitude is weird since it’s so incredibly useful to me.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    Why is it weird, exactly? I don't write throwaway projects so the mostly one-off nature of LLM code generation is not useful to me. And I'm not the only one either. If you can give examples of incredible usefulness then that can advance the discussion. Otherwise it's just us trying to out-shout each other, and I'm not interested in that.
  - Macha 2y ago
    Given they're a VC backed company rushing to claim market share and apparently selling well below cost, it's not clear that that will be the case. Compare the ride share companies for one case where prices went up once they were successful.
- jprete 2y ago
  It's a message board frequented by extremely tech-involved people. I'd expect the vast majority of people here to have some financial interest in LLMs - big-tech equity, direct employment, AI startup, AI influencer, or whatever.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    Yeah, very likely. It's the new gold rush, and they are commanding wages that make me drool (and also make me want to howl in pain and agony and envy but hey, let's not mention the obvious, shall we?). I always forget the name of that law but... it's hard to make somebody understand something if their salary depends on them not understanding it.

bdangubic 2y ago

but that’s thing, right? it is not “seemingly” there are A LOT of highly educated people here telling you LLMs are doing amazing shit for them - perhaps a wise response should be “lemme go back and see whether it can also become part of my own toolbox…” I have spent 24 years coding without LLMs, cannot fathom now spending more than a day without it…

pdimitar 2y ago
I have tried them a few times but they were only good at generating a few snippets. If you have scrutable and interesting examples, I am willing to look them up and try to apply them to my work.
wizzwizz4 2y ago
Which needs does it fulfil that you weren't able to fulfil yourself? (Advance prediction: these are needs that would be fulfilled better by improvements to conventional tooling.)

shiveenp 2y ago

In my opinion people that harp on about how LLMs have been game changer for them are the people that put themselves as never actually having built anything sophisticated enough that a team of engineers can work and extend on for years.

LouisSayers 2y ago
"Game changer" maybe. But what you'll probably find is that people that are skilled communicators are currently getting a decent productivity boost from LLMs, and I suspect that the difference between many that are bullish vs bearish is quite likely coming down to ability to structure and communicate thoughts effectively. Personally, I've found AI to be a large productivity boost - especially once I've put certain patterns and structure into code. It's then like hitting the N2O button on the keyboard. Sure, there are people making toy apps using LLMs that are going to quickly become a unmaintainable mess, but don't be too quick to assume that LLMs aren't already making an impact within production systems. I know from experience that they are.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  > I suspect that the difference between many that are bullish vs bearish is quite likely coming down to ability to structure and communicate thoughts effectively. Strange perspective. I found LLMs lacking in less popular programming languages, for example. It's mostly down to statistics. I agree that being able to communicate well with an LLM gives you more results. It's a productivity enabler of sorts. It is not a game changer however. > don't be too quick to assume that LLMs aren't already making an impact within production systems. I know from experience that they are. OK, I am open to proof. But people are just saying it and leaving the claims hanging.
pdimitar 2y ago
Yep, as cynical and demeaning that must sound to them, I am arriving at the same conclusion.
- Me001 2y ago