5 ms·

Only 720k Snapdragon X laptops sold in Q3 – less than 0.8% of PCs

21 points by ironyman 2y ago

not_your_vase 2y ago
For most people, it's a random laptop. The amount of people who specifically want an ARM laptop is not too big. People who want ARM based laptop AND Windows is even smaller. Most of the first group already bought Apple silicon, or some random variant of PineBookPro & Co (or that Lenovo with ARM CPU that's name escapes me. But these folks can run Windows too). Otherwise the rest of the people amount to this (0.8% is still more than I expected - that's quite respectable actually).
- janice1999 2y ago
  For most people it's a Windows laptop that claims to have Apple like performance and battery life. I'm not sure it quite delivered on that, but at least that is how it's positioned itself.
  - ratg13 2y ago
    It’s been my experience. Switched from a X1 Yoga to a T14s with Snapdragon My battery on my previous PC (1.5 yrs old) would just manage to get me through a meeting. New PC can go all day on a single charge, and it does seem to be quicker as well.
    - janice1999 2y ago
      What's Windows like on it? Any major app limitations you've run into? To be honest I'd love to try it out with Debian once all the upstream support is merged.
      - goosedragons 2y ago
        IME the only major app limitations are games. All the browsers now have a native ARM version. It's possible to get ARM Emacs, R, Visual Studio etc. Most other stuff works fine over compatibility. I have run into one program that would not install because it hard-codes a check for x64. It wasn't anything major and I cant even recall what it was though. I have heard about issues with printer drivers but I don't have a printer or any other devices that don't just use some generic driver.
        canucker2016 2y ago
        Microsoft released an update to their Prism x64 emulator for ARM, see https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/6/24289844/microsoft-windows-on-arm-emulator-prism-update https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/6/24289844/microsoft-window... With this update, Microsoft’s emulator will open up support for 64-bit x86 software to use processor extensions like AVX, AVX2, BMI, FMA, and F16C. However, it says 32-bit software still won’t be able to detect the new emulator support, so some programs still might have trouble. Supporting newer-than-MMX-SIMD CPU instructions may help some games run on ARM now.
    - orev 2y ago
      Assuming “a meeting” is one hour (you should really provide a lot more detail if it isn’t when making a claim like that), then something was seriously wrong with that PC. My 3 year old Intel PC (Dell 7420) easily gets through 4 or 5 hours before I start worrying about plugging in.
snvzz 2y ago
For a tech enthusiast, it is hard to get excited about switching from a 2-vendor proprietary ISA (x86) to a 1-vendor proprietary ISA (arm).
mgdev 2y ago
Over-marketed the technology, under-marketed the benefits.
sethops1 2y ago
Would be happy to buy a supported Linux variant
- dismalaf 2y ago
  It's Qualcomm, not happening...
  - janice1999 2y ago
    There's a significant upstreaming effort and their engineers have presented at a Linux con. While not an official product, this time it might actually be different. https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-linux-kernel-support-for-the-snapdragon-x-elite https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-...
    - dismalaf 2y ago
      Nowadays Intel, AMD and even Nvidia have Linux support when a product is launched, so yeah, it's bad that the laptops are in the wild with no support.
    - abrouwers 2y ago
      I gave up waiting :(. The first time in 20 years I've not used Linux on a laptop at home. The recent MacBook air deals were too inviting, and I hate to say, solved every complaint I had with my last intel machine.
      - mrkstu 2y ago
        Asahi not running on latest Air yet?
    - nixosbestos 2y ago
      "This time"? It's been months. The DTSes were built and upstreamed by community members. Qualcomm was too busy absolutely wasting their time on the Windows Dev Kit which is now dead in the water. They clearly still don't get it. And AFAICT they're not taking any leadership in the technical areas where ARM is not great (bootloader/DTS selection-y stuff, which has been a varying level of nightmare the entire time I've been tinkering with non-x86 devices. One thing when you're selling an embedded product; a different one when you start wanting distros to support your platform).
orev 2y ago
If we know anything about Microsoft, they’ll get there. This is their second (recent) try at getting ARM off the ground (first was SQ1 which had a much lower adoption rate). Feedback about them has been mostly positive, but mostly from people who use regular office and web apps. Most major app developers seem to be on-board, and I’ve seen a lot of small developers starting to provide beta versions.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  Indeed. The most important apps already have native Windows ARM builds: 7Zip, Notepad++, Firefox, Sumatra PDF etc. It's pretty usable for Average Joes.
  - canucker2016 2y ago
    Google Chrome and Microsoft Office also have native Windows ARM binaries. https://blog.google/products/chrome/download-google-chrome-windows-pc-arm/ https://blog.google/products/chrome/download-google-chrome-w... and https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/microsoft365insider/64-bit-office-for-windows-on-arm/2498829 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/microsoft365...
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      It's funny how Google finally caved in a d released a Chrome build for Windows ARM after many years of avoiding it to not enable Microsoft's Arm product to compete with their Chromebooks.
- freitasm 2y ago
  I'm not sure about the his view. Microsoft attempted smartphones twice. Failed both times. And stopped.
  - Arnt 2y ago
    They're not infallible. But also not bad. I mean, starting from Windows on client devices isn't a very good basis to set up a cloud, but theirs is clearly number two. I'd love to have one of those laptops, with Debian, 12" not 15.
dismalaf 2y ago
I mean, between the lacklustre GPU, compatibility issues, price and the fact that AMD and Intel have made huge strides on battery life I can't see the market for this. Also Unix nerds who don't like Apple also won't buy these because Qualcomm is shit when it comes to driver and kernel support. Expensive too. And realistically, no one needs 24hr battery life. 12 hours is plenty. Heck even 8 hours is enough, talking a full working day.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  The kind of battery life you get from these laptops is a step change, in that you go from constantly thinking about the charge on them to not really thinking about it at all. That's a pretty big improvement for most people. (And it's not like your typical dell reliably lasts 12 or even 8 hours anyway, that's only the best case)
  - ivewonyoung 2y ago
    The latest Intel laptop chips are really good on that regard.
  - QuarterReptile 2y ago
    My 5 year old Surface pro gets 4-5 hours. I find 10th gen and later Intel to get about 8.
  - dismalaf 2y ago
    I mean, my 16" MSI with 11th Gen Intel and Nvidia GPU gets 6 hours on Linux (openSuse)... Any current gen laptop with APU should be getting 12 hours. But I don't know Windows, it could be that bad?
- Arnt 2y ago
  I travel for work sometimes. You often don't really know about charging. I need a lot more battery capacity than at home to be confident of doing my work.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  “24hr” battery life is still usually <8h at significant load (IDE/video editing/etc.), also sometimes I want to use the display at full blast instead of 150 nits when I’m working in a park or cafe, sometimes the power outlet on a plane won’t hold my charger in and I wanna game on the plane, lots of legitimate use cases for “24hr” battery life
zamadatix 2y ago
Qualcomm's exclusivity for consumer Windows ARM devices ends in 2025. It sounds like there may be several others starting up competition in this area e.g. https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/gaming-pcs/nvidias-arm-based-pc-chips-for-consumers-to-launch-in-september-2025-commercial-to-follow-in-2026-report https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/gaming-pcs/nvidias-arm...
nothercastle 2y ago
I just don’t see why you would go for this when you can buy a m3/m4 Mac with a fully functional ecosystem.
- Arnt 2y ago
  But I do. Lots of people don't, but they don't need to. I don't need your permission to buy the hardware I prefer, and you don't need mine.
- staticman2 2y ago
  M3 and M4 mac's require you to put up with the overly thin laptop keyboards. (I know some people say they like them.) Admittedly many Windows PC's also have crummy thin keyboards these days, but the ones on the Thinkpads should be okay.
  - Tsiklon 2y ago
    Personally I like apple laptop keyboards now, I find them better than many windows machines, or at least tolerable; I have a Razer laptop as well which has a decent keyboard. Thankfully on the macOS front, there’s more than just the laptops. The Mac Mini isn’t a bad machine, albeit you supply the keyboard that inflicts your own misery there
- goosedragons 2y ago
  Apple doesn't make a non-crippled tablet. Surface Pro 11 is fast enough and MS doesn't arbitrarily decide how I use the device. It also plays nicer with my mix of non-Apple products whereas Apple is far more annoying in that regard.
- hu3 2y ago
  But then you would have to use a mac. Some people dislike that.
pajko 2y ago
How many % of PCs in the same price range? Would have bought one, but even the cheapest one I could find right now (ASUS Vivobook S5507) is too expensive for me (and it seems like it goes for about the half of the "normal" range).
Squarex 2y ago
Almost a percent of PC sales with a certain CPU configuration doesn't seem that bad at all.
etempleton 2y ago
With Intel and AMD figuring out x86 battery life, Windows based arm is DOA unless ARM chip makers are willing to sell on razor thin margins to out compete on price. Even then, business will be reluctant to switch.
brudgers 2y ago
A demand spike for Windows laptops is next fall. That's when Windows 10 stops getting free support and laptops that can't run Windows 11 will need replacement...yes, Linux is an option for some people but don't put your money on 2025 as the year of the Linux Desktop. Right now, there's just ordinary laptop demand and ordinary laptop demand has been low for many years. But when demand spikes next year, there will be mature products in the market.

21 points by ironyman 2y ago

For most people, it's a random laptop. The amount of people who specifically want an ARM laptop is not too big. People who want ARM based laptop AND Windows is even smaller. Most of the first group already bought Apple silicon, or some random variant of PineBookPro & Co (or that Lenovo with ARM CPU that's name escapes me. But these folks can run Windows too). Otherwise the rest of the people amount to this (0.8% is still more than I expected - that's quite respectable actually).

janice1999 2y ago
For most people it's a Windows laptop that claims to have Apple like performance and battery life. I'm not sure it quite delivered on that, but at least that is how it's positioned itself.
- ratg13 2y ago
  It’s been my experience. Switched from a X1 Yoga to a T14s with Snapdragon My battery on my previous PC (1.5 yrs old) would just manage to get me through a meeting. New PC can go all day on a single charge, and it does seem to be quicker as well.
  - janice1999 2y ago
    What's Windows like on it? Any major app limitations you've run into? To be honest I'd love to try it out with Debian once all the upstream support is merged.
    - goosedragons 2y ago
      IME the only major app limitations are games. All the browsers now have a native ARM version. It's possible to get ARM Emacs, R, Visual Studio etc. Most other stuff works fine over compatibility. I have run into one program that would not install because it hard-codes a check for x64. It wasn't anything major and I cant even recall what it was though. I have heard about issues with printer drivers but I don't have a printer or any other devices that don't just use some generic driver.
      - canucker2016 2y ago
        Microsoft released an update to their Prism x64 emulator for ARM, see https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/6/24289844/microsoft-windows-on-arm-emulator-prism-update https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/6/24289844/microsoft-window... With this update, Microsoft’s emulator will open up support for 64-bit x86 software to use processor extensions like AVX, AVX2, BMI, FMA, and F16C. However, it says 32-bit software still won’t be able to detect the new emulator support, so some programs still might have trouble. Supporting newer-than-MMX-SIMD CPU instructions may help some games run on ARM now.
  - orev 2y ago
    Assuming “a meeting” is one hour (you should really provide a lot more detail if it isn’t when making a claim like that), then something was seriously wrong with that PC. My 3 year old Intel PC (Dell 7420) easily gets through 4 or 5 hours before I start worrying about plugging in.

snvzz 2y ago

For a tech enthusiast, it is hard to get excited about switching from a 2-vendor proprietary ISA (x86) to a 1-vendor proprietary ISA (arm).

mgdev 2y ago

Over-marketed the technology, under-marketed the benefits.

sethops1 2y ago

Would be happy to buy a supported Linux variant

dismalaf 2y ago
It's Qualcomm, not happening...
- janice1999 2y ago
  There's a significant upstreaming effort and their engineers have presented at a Linux con. While not an official product, this time it might actually be different. https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-linux-kernel-support-for-the-snapdragon-x-elite https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-...
  - dismalaf 2y ago
    Nowadays Intel, AMD and even Nvidia have Linux support when a product is launched, so yeah, it's bad that the laptops are in the wild with no support.
  - abrouwers 2y ago
    I gave up waiting :(. The first time in 20 years I've not used Linux on a laptop at home. The recent MacBook air deals were too inviting, and I hate to say, solved every complaint I had with my last intel machine.
    - mrkstu 2y ago
      Asahi not running on latest Air yet?
  - nixosbestos 2y ago
    "This time"? It's been months. The DTSes were built and upstreamed by community members. Qualcomm was too busy absolutely wasting their time on the Windows Dev Kit which is now dead in the water. They clearly still don't get it. And AFAICT they're not taking any leadership in the technical areas where ARM is not great (bootloader/DTS selection-y stuff, which has been a varying level of nightmare the entire time I've been tinkering with non-x86 devices. One thing when you're selling an embedded product; a different one when you start wanting distros to support your platform).

orev 2y ago

If we know anything about Microsoft, they’ll get there. This is their second (recent) try at getting ARM off the ground (first was SQ1 which had a much lower adoption rate). Feedback about them has been mostly positive, but mostly from people who use regular office and web apps. Most major app developers seem to be on-board, and I’ve seen a lot of small developers starting to provide beta versions.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
Indeed. The most important apps already have native Windows ARM builds: 7Zip, Notepad++, Firefox, Sumatra PDF etc. It's pretty usable for Average Joes.
- canucker2016 2y ago
  Google Chrome and Microsoft Office also have native Windows ARM binaries. https://blog.google/products/chrome/download-google-chrome-windows-pc-arm/ https://blog.google/products/chrome/download-google-chrome-w... and https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/microsoft365insider/64-bit-office-for-windows-on-arm/2498829 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/microsoft365...
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    It's funny how Google finally caved in a d released a Chrome build for Windows ARM after many years of avoiding it to not enable Microsoft's Arm product to compete with their Chromebooks.
freitasm 2y ago
I'm not sure about the his view. Microsoft attempted smartphones twice. Failed both times. And stopped.
- Arnt 2y ago
  They're not infallible. But also not bad. I mean, starting from Windows on client devices isn't a very good basis to set up a cloud, but theirs is clearly number two. I'd love to have one of those laptops, with Debian, 12" not 15.

dismalaf 2y ago

I mean, between the lacklustre GPU, compatibility issues, price and the fact that AMD and Intel have made huge strides on battery life I can't see the market for this. Also Unix nerds who don't like Apple also won't buy these because Qualcomm is shit when it comes to driver and kernel support. Expensive too. And realistically, no one needs 24hr battery life. 12 hours is plenty. Heck even 8 hours is enough, talking a full working day.

rcxdude 2y ago
The kind of battery life you get from these laptops is a step change, in that you go from constantly thinking about the charge on them to not really thinking about it at all. That's a pretty big improvement for most people. (And it's not like your typical dell reliably lasts 12 or even 8 hours anyway, that's only the best case)
- ivewonyoung 2y ago
  The latest Intel laptop chips are really good on that regard.
- QuarterReptile 2y ago
  My 5 year old Surface pro gets 4-5 hours. I find 10th gen and later Intel to get about 8.
- dismalaf 2y ago
  I mean, my 16" MSI with 11th Gen Intel and Nvidia GPU gets 6 hours on Linux (openSuse)... Any current gen laptop with APU should be getting 12 hours. But I don't know Windows, it could be that bad?
Arnt 2y ago
I travel for work sometimes. You often don't really know about charging. I need a lot more battery capacity than at home to be confident of doing my work.
rangestransform 2y ago
“24hr” battery life is still usually <8h at significant load (IDE/video editing/etc.), also sometimes I want to use the display at full blast instead of 150 nits when I’m working in a park or cafe, sometimes the power outlet on a plane won’t hold my charger in and I wanna game on the plane, lots of legitimate use cases for “24hr” battery life

zamadatix 2y ago

Qualcomm's exclusivity for consumer Windows ARM devices ends in 2025. It sounds like there may be several others starting up competition in this area e.g. https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/gaming-pcs/nvidias-arm-based-pc-chips-for-consumers-to-launch-in-september-2025-commercial-to-follow-in-2026-report https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/gaming-pcs/nvidias-arm...

nothercastle 2y ago

I just don’t see why you would go for this when you can buy a m3/m4 Mac with a fully functional ecosystem.

Arnt 2y ago
But I do. Lots of people don't, but they don't need to. I don't need your permission to buy the hardware I prefer, and you don't need mine.
staticman2 2y ago
M3 and M4 mac's require you to put up with the overly thin laptop keyboards. (I know some people say they like them.) Admittedly many Windows PC's also have crummy thin keyboards these days, but the ones on the Thinkpads should be okay.
- Tsiklon 2y ago
  Personally I like apple laptop keyboards now, I find them better than many windows machines, or at least tolerable; I have a Razer laptop as well which has a decent keyboard. Thankfully on the macOS front, there’s more than just the laptops. The Mac Mini isn’t a bad machine, albeit you supply the keyboard that inflicts your own misery there
goosedragons 2y ago
Apple doesn't make a non-crippled tablet. Surface Pro 11 is fast enough and MS doesn't arbitrarily decide how I use the device. It also plays nicer with my mix of non-Apple products whereas Apple is far more annoying in that regard.
hu3 2y ago
But then you would have to use a mac. Some people dislike that.

pajko 2y ago

How many % of PCs in the same price range? Would have bought one, but even the cheapest one I could find right now (ASUS Vivobook S5507) is too expensive for me (and it seems like it goes for about the half of the "normal" range).

Squarex 2y ago

Almost a percent of PC sales with a certain CPU configuration doesn't seem that bad at all.

etempleton 2y ago

With Intel and AMD figuring out x86 battery life, Windows based arm is DOA unless ARM chip makers are willing to sell on razor thin margins to out compete on price. Even then, business will be reluctant to switch.

brudgers 2y ago

A demand spike for Windows laptops is next fall. That's when Windows 10 stops getting free support and laptops that can't run Windows 11 will need replacement...yes, Linux is an option for some people but don't put your money on 2025 as the year of the Linux Desktop. Right now, there's just ordinary laptop demand and ordinary laptop demand has been low for many years. But when demand spikes next year, there will be mature products in the market.