25 ms·

Long time freelancer here (decades). I've gotten 99% of my contracts through word-of-mouth. You will get better long-term results than simply grinding through j

by kmoser 2y ago

Long time freelancer here (decades). I've gotten 99% of my contracts through word-of-mouth. You will get better long-term results than simply grinding through job boards (which you should still do--you never know). You will want to do two things: 1) Cultivate your existing network. Just the other day I reconnected with a friend I haven't seen in several decades. Guess what? He just so happened to be a software dev, and needed another dev to help him with a project. This is just one of many, many stories I have. Call or email people to see how they're doing. Even better, meet up with them for coffee or a meal. This doesn't have to be mercenary; you're probably already doing those things. But start reaching deeper into your network. 2) Build your your network by meeting others in your field and/or potential customers in person (e.g. at user groups, meetups, tech talks, etc.). Talk about what you do and love to do. Presumably that involves your skills that you want to get work in. Finally, be consistent and reliable and communicate clearly. As for selling yourself when you're more of a generalist, I wouldn't worry too much about this yet. The key will be when you're presented with a job opportunity that leans in one direction (e.g. 90% dev, 10% management), and you'll have to decide how far you're willing to bend to fit it. But right now you're just getting the word out.

kevinsync 2y ago
I'm a sucker for replying to any sort of "how do I [career]" HN posts if they're relevant to my own experience, just can't help myself. I also freelance exclusively, and opportunities come from word of mouth + the personal network that I've built over years of working with (or in) digital agencies. Full-timers jump from agency to agency at a fairly high clip and it's inevitable to run into people you've worked with before because they eventually need somebody and just think back to who they worked with in the past who they have fond memories of. Generalism isn't a hindrance IMO because the job itself, like it or not, is a service job. You're not there to learn on the job, be part of the family, or find growth opportunities / upward career tracks inside of the organization -- you're there to help solve immediate problems, augment staff, and by God get things done. The more you know, the better! The way project resourcing works internally in these places is, the wider the skillset, the easier it is to slot you into a particular project that needs extra attention. The engagements are also pretty low risk for the agency since whatever you charge, they just inflate your rate to make sure they make money and pass it on to the client (which almost always gets paid), deliverables get delivered, the client is happy, and life marches on -- and if you're ineffective, they can just let you go with no notice, no offboarding, no extra costs, etc. For me personally, that's a win-win. For a lot of people, it's too much stress / risk / uncertainty, but different strokes for different folks! Every now and then I'll get a gig or retainer that's more in line with "we're a small, thriving business, we need expertise, we have some budget, but we've also had bad experiences with small-to-medium tech shops. Help!" -- these are right in my wheelhouse because it's an easy retainer, quite low-risk for the client, and you can really make some meaningful impact on their bottom line as just one person. You become "their guy", and the relationships can last for years and years and years. Again, this is a service job, and generalism REALLY helps on these types of engagements -- to be clear, you're not being paid to R&D a product or do academic research on cutting-edge algorithms -- you're just helping a client or business navigate the often-murky waters of technology to help them win. It might not sound "world-changing" in the context of big tech, but it can be quite satisfying work that really means something significant to real people just trying their best to make their thing go. Anyways, to OP, good luck man! There's infinite opportunity out there if you've got the personality and the drive!
- leros 2y ago
  That sounds exactly like what I'm trying to do. I have no experience with the agency world and most of my contacts are in giant corporations. Do you think it would help to do some work in the agency world?
  - kevinsync 2y ago
    I guess it depends on what country you live in; I'm in the US, not sure what it's like elsewhere with regards to advertising, but if USA-based then yeah I would pursue that. Initially it'll probably be easier via a recruiter who already has a relationship with the agency where they bring you in and put you on the bench until a gig opens up. From what I've seen, brands (clients) rarely do much in-house -- they hire agencies (for periods of time, then will go to others depending upon results), sometimes hire as Agency of Record for a period of time as well (all creative, from web/app/digital through social management, media, print, etc, flows through their AOR) -- everything runs on quarterly client budgets (so frequent initiatives that "ladder up" to XYZ intangible "KPI" -- you'll get used to the arbitrary and capricious lingo) -- and it's really not that far off from a modern version of Mad Men. "Agency life" is another phrase that encapsulates "we probably have time management issues and/or over-commit to stuff, so if you want to succeed in this business, be willing to be patient, present and available for the duration and parameters of the project" -- as a freelancer though, you get paid by the hour, rather than being a salaryman. I did 15 years of full-time employment, salaried. Overtime === a slice of pizza, a pat on the back, a vague promise of promotion; as a freelancer, it's dollars-per-hour, nothing more nothing less, you get paid for your efforts. I've only been fortunate enough to benefit from that having done full-time salaryman in these places long enough to meet enough people and make enough contributions to become a known quantity. That said, I do have friends though that were ONLY contractors the entire time, usually via a recruiter as mentioned above, they worked in the same places on the same projects, and they've been able to flip that into similar situations or even full-time with the companies they gelled with the most. There are a bunch of ways to approach it, but the fluid, always-changing clientele of ad agencies provides quite a lot of opportunities for work that isn't just "employee".
Beijinger 2y ago
I am from a total different field but: I've gotten 99% of my contracts through word-of-mouth. Yes, no brainer. But how to get the first contract? I exploited myself, my client vastly underpaid but I had my first client.
- deaddodo 2y ago
  Networking, honestly. There is no "go do this, go buy this, etc" advice. You've never had a friend/colleague who needed contracting work done on their house? Or who was helping another friend develop a Wordpress site for their business? Or a person who knew a lawyer/doctor/plumber that could solve your problem? That's networking. You start doing work for people around you and/or at conventions/social events for networking and then start cultivating long term contacts that continue giving work or referring others.
catigula 2y ago
It is truly an extravert's world. What you just described sounds like torture to me.
- cpfohl 2y ago
  Networking is not just for extroverts. One on one time with friends, and small group networking is still valuable networking.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    > One on one time with friends, and small group networking is still valuable networking. Sure, but it isn't as likely to get you new opportunities in new fields the way being extroverted is.
    - cpfohl 2y ago
      I accept that premise if the goal is opportunity in novel fields. If the goal is simply landing an opportunity I think he introvert’s approach is actually more powerful. The extrovert has loads of low probability opportunities; they tend to be more varied due to the breadth of their networking. The introvert is selling to people they know; if they get to the point where they are asking for the opportunity I predict they land a larger percentage than the extrovert. Because they’re drawn from a smaller network, however, they are also likely to be in narrower fields.
      - em-bee 2y ago
        there are always different levels. what you say depends having friends and the ability to keep in touch with them in the first place. and not be shy to ask them after not talking to them for a long time. i struggle with that, and i only have a handful of people i could even ask. so far my network of people i already know is useless, and i feel like i have more chances to find new people, which requires going to events and meet new faces. except that only works in large cities with an active event scene. so no, being an introvert is a handicap and not an advantage.
memjay 2y ago
Software dev, curious about freelancing here. Just recently deleted my LinkedIn profile out of being disappointed with the value it brought to me over several years of using it. Instead, I now note down relevant contacts in a private “CRM”. Do you think it is important to have a public facing profile of yourself and your work history for attracting new clients or is a broad in person network more relevant?
- itbeho 2y ago
  I've been on Linkedin from the start and I don't think I've ever gotten work or meaningful benefit from it other than seeing what some acquaintances have been up to over the years and occasionally getting a message from an old friend reaching out to catch up personally.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    It's a useful online Rolodex (to show my age). I've had a few recruiters reach out over the years but it's never been useful for that purpose beyond that.
- Bilal_io 2y ago
  Some new people you meet will prefer to see who you are by looking you up online. At least to me, someone's online presence is a testimony that the person is who they claim to be when it comes to their experience.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    I’m the opposite, I think online profiles are completely untrustworthy and likely as not to be filled with exaggerations or outright lies. But I’m probably in the minority?
- kmoser 2y ago
  This shouldn't be an either/or thing. Any public facing profile, especially on a platform like LinkedIn which is large and has many eyes on it, is better than none if you're looking to get the word out. I've had a LinkedIn profile from nearly the beginning, and although I nearly never use it, I am occasionally contacted by people about work. If I spent even an iota of time filling out my profile and posting regularly, it would probably bring me many offers. (Whether they'd be what I'm looking for is another story.) If I had to choose between a public facing profile or a broad in person network, I'd choose the in person network. But you really shouldn't discount the online profile, since it's free advertising for you.
bilsbie 2y ago
> Call or email people to see how they're doing. Even better, meet up with them for coffee or a meal I like this idea but it feels inauthentic. Can you share examples of how you broach this?
- anomaloustho 2y ago
  Side note: I’ve found that it’s never quite so binary. I can enjoy having a beer with someone and shooting the breeze, while also talking about work and jobs. Your gardener might be the person who finds you on the floor choking and saves your life. Your coworker who you don’t even really know might be moved to donate an organ to you. Humans are complex.
- invalidOrTaken 2y ago
  The key is to mean it. Then it's not inauthentic.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    I also find that proposition very inauthentic because the first reason for the approach is showing interest to your friend (how do they do?) but he second reason is literally (not judging) selfish (how can I get a new job?). Someone call you after 10 years to know how you do, precisely at the same time he look for a job… what a coincidence! He might genuinely care for me but the original reason of his call wasn’t that and he probably wouldn’t have call me if not. I would receive better an honest call: "hey I know its been 10 years but I look for a job, any idea?” Some people around me find that way of communicating too direct and impolite. I find it genuine. But I’m probably the one that should be fixed, others seems to find relations easy and pleasant.
    - invalidOrTaken 2y ago
      I have in mind a friend who on first contact, comes off as somewhat superficial and business-brained, b/c he's always hitting people up for lunches, or calls, and likes to talk about jobs. The thing is, he does that all the time. Employed, unemployed, rain, shine. And he doesn't just like to talk about (or look for) opportunities for him, but for everyone else, too. So over time, you realize that's just how he is/what he does, and it comes across as completely natural. He's one of my best friends, honestly.
garrickvanburen 2y ago
This is the answer
dyauspitr 2y ago
Horrible. If I have to spend all my time keeping in touch with hundreds of people then it sounds like hell. A more realistic suggestion is to just to make a profile on upwork and grow your reputation there.
- kmoser 2y ago
  Who said you have to spend all your time doing that? My suggestion was to simply keep up with your social network, in whatever way works for you.
space_oddity 2y ago
The point about being consistent, reliable and a clear communicator is what turns a one-time gig into repeat work. In my experience, many freelancers underestimate how much clients value those soft skills

by kmoser 2y ago

kevinsync 2y ago

I'm a sucker for replying to any sort of "how do I [career]" HN posts if they're relevant to my own experience, just can't help myself. I also freelance exclusively, and opportunities come from word of mouth + the personal network that I've built over years of working with (or in) digital agencies. Full-timers jump from agency to agency at a fairly high clip and it's inevitable to run into people you've worked with before because they eventually need somebody and just think back to who they worked with in the past who they have fond memories of. Generalism isn't a hindrance IMO because the job itself, like it or not, is a service job. You're not there to learn on the job, be part of the family, or find growth opportunities / upward career tracks inside of the organization -- you're there to help solve immediate problems, augment staff, and by God get things done. The more you know, the better! The way project resourcing works internally in these places is, the wider the skillset, the easier it is to slot you into a particular project that needs extra attention. The engagements are also pretty low risk for the agency since whatever you charge, they just inflate your rate to make sure they make money and pass it on to the client (which almost always gets paid), deliverables get delivered, the client is happy, and life marches on -- and if you're ineffective, they can just let you go with no notice, no offboarding, no extra costs, etc. For me personally, that's a win-win. For a lot of people, it's too much stress / risk / uncertainty, but different strokes for different folks! Every now and then I'll get a gig or retainer that's more in line with "we're a small, thriving business, we need expertise, we have some budget, but we've also had bad experiences with small-to-medium tech shops. Help!" -- these are right in my wheelhouse because it's an easy retainer, quite low-risk for the client, and you can really make some meaningful impact on their bottom line as just one person. You become "their guy", and the relationships can last for years and years and years. Again, this is a service job, and generalism REALLY helps on these types of engagements -- to be clear, you're not being paid to R&D a product or do academic research on cutting-edge algorithms -- you're just helping a client or business navigate the often-murky waters of technology to help them win. It might not sound "world-changing" in the context of big tech, but it can be quite satisfying work that really means something significant to real people just trying their best to make their thing go. Anyways, to OP, good luck man! There's infinite opportunity out there if you've got the personality and the drive!

leros 2y ago
That sounds exactly like what I'm trying to do. I have no experience with the agency world and most of my contacts are in giant corporations. Do you think it would help to do some work in the agency world?
- kevinsync 2y ago
  I guess it depends on what country you live in; I'm in the US, not sure what it's like elsewhere with regards to advertising, but if USA-based then yeah I would pursue that. Initially it'll probably be easier via a recruiter who already has a relationship with the agency where they bring you in and put you on the bench until a gig opens up. From what I've seen, brands (clients) rarely do much in-house -- they hire agencies (for periods of time, then will go to others depending upon results), sometimes hire as Agency of Record for a period of time as well (all creative, from web/app/digital through social management, media, print, etc, flows through their AOR) -- everything runs on quarterly client budgets (so frequent initiatives that "ladder up" to XYZ intangible "KPI" -- you'll get used to the arbitrary and capricious lingo) -- and it's really not that far off from a modern version of Mad Men. "Agency life" is another phrase that encapsulates "we probably have time management issues and/or over-commit to stuff, so if you want to succeed in this business, be willing to be patient, present and available for the duration and parameters of the project" -- as a freelancer though, you get paid by the hour, rather than being a salaryman. I did 15 years of full-time employment, salaried. Overtime === a slice of pizza, a pat on the back, a vague promise of promotion; as a freelancer, it's dollars-per-hour, nothing more nothing less, you get paid for your efforts. I've only been fortunate enough to benefit from that having done full-time salaryman in these places long enough to meet enough people and make enough contributions to become a known quantity. That said, I do have friends though that were ONLY contractors the entire time, usually via a recruiter as mentioned above, they worked in the same places on the same projects, and they've been able to flip that into similar situations or even full-time with the companies they gelled with the most. There are a bunch of ways to approach it, but the fluid, always-changing clientele of ad agencies provides quite a lot of opportunities for work that isn't just "employee".

Beijinger 2y ago

I am from a total different field but: I've gotten 99% of my contracts through word-of-mouth. Yes, no brainer. But how to get the first contract? I exploited myself, my client vastly underpaid but I had my first client.

deaddodo 2y ago
Networking, honestly. There is no "go do this, go buy this, etc" advice. You've never had a friend/colleague who needed contracting work done on their house? Or who was helping another friend develop a Wordpress site for their business? Or a person who knew a lawyer/doctor/plumber that could solve your problem? That's networking. You start doing work for people around you and/or at conventions/social events for networking and then start cultivating long term contacts that continue giving work or referring others.

catigula 2y ago

It is truly an extravert's world. What you just described sounds like torture to me.

cpfohl 2y ago
Networking is not just for extroverts. One on one time with friends, and small group networking is still valuable networking.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  > One on one time with friends, and small group networking is still valuable networking. Sure, but it isn't as likely to get you new opportunities in new fields the way being extroverted is.
  - cpfohl 2y ago
    I accept that premise if the goal is opportunity in novel fields. If the goal is simply landing an opportunity I think he introvert’s approach is actually more powerful. The extrovert has loads of low probability opportunities; they tend to be more varied due to the breadth of their networking. The introvert is selling to people they know; if they get to the point where they are asking for the opportunity I predict they land a larger percentage than the extrovert. Because they’re drawn from a smaller network, however, they are also likely to be in narrower fields.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      there are always different levels. what you say depends having friends and the ability to keep in touch with them in the first place. and not be shy to ask them after not talking to them for a long time. i struggle with that, and i only have a handful of people i could even ask. so far my network of people i already know is useless, and i feel like i have more chances to find new people, which requires going to events and meet new faces. except that only works in large cities with an active event scene. so no, being an introvert is a handicap and not an advantage.

memjay 2y ago

Software dev, curious about freelancing here. Just recently deleted my LinkedIn profile out of being disappointed with the value it brought to me over several years of using it. Instead, I now note down relevant contacts in a private “CRM”. Do you think it is important to have a public facing profile of yourself and your work history for attracting new clients or is a broad in person network more relevant?

itbeho 2y ago
I've been on Linkedin from the start and I don't think I've ever gotten work or meaningful benefit from it other than seeing what some acquaintances have been up to over the years and occasionally getting a message from an old friend reaching out to catch up personally.
- ghaff 2y ago
  It's a useful online Rolodex (to show my age). I've had a few recruiters reach out over the years but it's never been useful for that purpose beyond that.
Bilal_io 2y ago
Some new people you meet will prefer to see who you are by looking you up online. At least to me, someone's online presence is a testimony that the person is who they claim to be when it comes to their experience.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I’m the opposite, I think online profiles are completely untrustworthy and likely as not to be filled with exaggerations or outright lies. But I’m probably in the minority?
kmoser 2y ago
This shouldn't be an either/or thing. Any public facing profile, especially on a platform like LinkedIn which is large and has many eyes on it, is better than none if you're looking to get the word out. I've had a LinkedIn profile from nearly the beginning, and although I nearly never use it, I am occasionally contacted by people about work. If I spent even an iota of time filling out my profile and posting regularly, it would probably bring me many offers. (Whether they'd be what I'm looking for is another story.) If I had to choose between a public facing profile or a broad in person network, I'd choose the in person network. But you really shouldn't discount the online profile, since it's free advertising for you.

bilsbie 2y ago

> Call or email people to see how they're doing. Even better, meet up with them for coffee or a meal I like this idea but it feels inauthentic. Can you share examples of how you broach this?

anomaloustho 2y ago
Side note: I’ve found that it’s never quite so binary. I can enjoy having a beer with someone and shooting the breeze, while also talking about work and jobs. Your gardener might be the person who finds you on the floor choking and saves your life. Your coworker who you don’t even really know might be moved to donate an organ to you. Humans are complex.
invalidOrTaken 2y ago
The key is to mean it. Then it's not inauthentic.
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  I also find that proposition very inauthentic because the first reason for the approach is showing interest to your friend (how do they do?) but he second reason is literally (not judging) selfish (how can I get a new job?). Someone call you after 10 years to know how you do, precisely at the same time he look for a job… what a coincidence! He might genuinely care for me but the original reason of his call wasn’t that and he probably wouldn’t have call me if not. I would receive better an honest call: "hey I know its been 10 years but I look for a job, any idea?” Some people around me find that way of communicating too direct and impolite. I find it genuine. But I’m probably the one that should be fixed, others seems to find relations easy and pleasant.
  - invalidOrTaken 2y ago
    I have in mind a friend who on first contact, comes off as somewhat superficial and business-brained, b/c he's always hitting people up for lunches, or calls, and likes to talk about jobs. The thing is, he does that all the time. Employed, unemployed, rain, shine. And he doesn't just like to talk about (or look for) opportunities for him, but for everyone else, too. So over time, you realize that's just how he is/what he does, and it comes across as completely natural. He's one of my best friends, honestly.

garrickvanburen 2y ago

This is the answer

dyauspitr 2y ago

Horrible. If I have to spend all my time keeping in touch with hundreds of people then it sounds like hell. A more realistic suggestion is to just to make a profile on upwork and grow your reputation there.

kmoser 2y ago
Who said you have to spend all your time doing that? My suggestion was to simply keep up with your social network, in whatever way works for you.

space_oddity 2y ago

The point about being consistent, reliable and a clear communicator is what turns a one-time gig into repeat work. In my experience, many freelancers underestimate how much clients value those soft skills