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Ask HN: How do you find part time work?

315 points by leros 2y ago

I have a project that I'm working on turning into a small business. I've done some part-time work (retainers and project-based) over the past year and it's gone well. It's relatively high pay for part-time work, leaving me time and flexibility to work on my own project. The thing, I haven't really put much work into finding this kind of work. I've had a few opportunities land in my lap pretty nicely. Now, I need to seek out more work like this. I have ideas, but I'm curious to see how others are finding part-time work. Ideally, I would get 10-15/hr a week retainers, but project-based work is ok too. The key is that I can keep getting the work with consistency. My corporate career was a cross between engineering and product management. I truly believe my best utility is the cross-over of the two. I'd be happy to do part-time leadership for small teams, take on independent projects, do things like build and maintain small apps/integrations, etc. So: 1) How are you finding part-time work? 2) How do you sell yourself if you're more of a generalist like me?

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andrewlevver 2y ago
I believe in today's day and age if you are freelancing and you aren't writing and producing content everyday around your POV and skills and offering than you won't find work consistently. It's a way for others to validate your abilities and get a glimpse into, well, YOU. I had a solo consulting business for 4 years before I started doing this, since I started writing everyday the world has opened up and I have more opportunity than ever. https://www.aletterfor.com/ https://www.aletterfor.com/ is my substack.
mecHacker 2y ago
As someone in b2b enterprise software realm - Product Lifecycle Management specifically - I'm not seeing any avenues for remote gigs. I've over 15 yrs. of exp. including at bigTech in US, and recently left my bigtech full-time job and relocated to India. It feels like barring visa-constraints, it would have been a lot easier to find PLM/Eng-Systems gigs while in the US. Any advice for someone in my situation - I'd love to still live here and not relocated for a job again! Tx!
Harshani99 2y ago
[dead]
ethernot 2y ago
1. Networking and keeping contacts. Not LinkedIn which I have found to be completely useless and full of lunatics and weirdos. Good old fashioned email and exchanging details when you work with other people. Check in with people occasionally to remind them you still exist. I have to turn work away. 2. Mostly bullshitting people then winging it.
- bilsbie 2y ago
  What’s the best way to check in? I feel kind of inauthentic when I do it.
  - lizzas 2y ago
    I guess just be upfront? "Hey James, I see you are working at Microsoft in Azure Compute and I am interested in breaking into that too. Would it be possible to go for coffee or catch up on Zoom?" You may have to remind them how they know you if it has been a while :). Keep it short. Unless you know they like a long email!
    - ipaddr 2y ago
      Why would anyone respond to that? I haven't talked to you in 15 years and barely knew you. Looks like you are working at Google, I want a job there too. Lets catch up on zoom.
      - coryrc 2y ago
        If any past coworker I liked wanted to get lunch I'm up for it. For me it's not yet exceeded 8 years back so I guess I can't demonstrate that yet :). I also get a referral bonus so I do want to refer people!
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        I don’t think I’ve ever had communication with past coworker after my last day of work there. Maybe once or twice.
lizzas 2y ago
Check out: - https://www.fractionaljobs.io/ https://www.fractionaljobs.io/ - HN - who wants to be hired - Talk to people you have worked with. - Keep your eyes open all times. E.g. I always pop into careers of a HN post, I keep a list of companies I am curious about. I do this even though I am not looking for a job. - Negotiate - ask a FT job if they will do PT or contract. - Find an agency to join as a contractor [edited for clarity]
- throwoutway 2y ago
  I like this, but there are only 17 and the majority are "Chief Financial Officer" or similar. Any other fractional job boards?
  - tbird24 2y ago
    Founder of https://fractionaljobs.io https://fractionaljobs.io here, yes you're right. But we spend dozens of hours a week sourcing the whole web for open fractional roles. So it's not that this board doesn't have the ones you want, it's that there just aren't that many available yet. But we're doing everything we can to accelerate this. We have about 5 new jobs launching tomorrow.
    - codingdave 2y ago
      Through some work I've done the last couple years, I've been exposed to a couple consultants who specialize in using fractional work within organizations. Between them, their clients, and others I've known who have gone that direction, I think I see a flaw here -- such jobs exist, but are rarely posted on the web. "Fractional" is a term that is often focused on leadership roles more than part time IC gigs. You will find such roles when talking to C-level leaders at organizations who are having growing pains - maybe their IC hiring is outpacing the director-level hiring, maybe they grew too fast to fully develop all the skills needed. Either way, the exec team is overwhelmed. They know they need more leadership, but don't want to build out a large middle management layer. So they are looking for solutions to a problem. Because of that, if you are trying to accelerate, stop scouring the web. Scouring the web just puts you in a reactive position, acting as a recruiter and hoping the people you find happen to match the posting. Instead, get talking directly to C-level execs and board members at small/medium-sized growing companies, and be the consultant guiding them to decide whether they need to hire, or if contracting a fractional leader into their org is a better solution. Let your postings be the results of those conversations, and keep getting to know people who are looking for fractional work. Tie those two together, and you'll see acceleration.
BobbyTables2 2y ago
Never tried but try finding really small companies (<20 employees - the fewer, the better).
k__ 2y ago
I'm a freelancer, which makes things much easier. Usually, people ask me to work for them full time, and then I tell them I only do 30h/week max and they're usually good with that.
- mportela 2y ago
  Follow up question: how do you find freelancing opportunities?
  - k__ 2y ago
    When I started, I checked out websites similar to Upwork and Fiverr. I also found some gigs through friends. Later, started tech blogging and companies started approaching me. What helped the most was becoming a contributor for an tech ecosystem. Find a technology that's small, but has potential for growth. Start using it and contributing. When the big players move in, you might have a few months or years advance.
    - leros 2y ago
      Did you find UpWork worth pursuing? I looked at it briefly and it seemed like a race to the bottom on compensation. What type of blogging are you doing? I'm curious how companies would find that and decide to hire you.
      - k__ 2y ago
        "Did you find UpWork worth pursuing?" Personally? No. But I met a few people who were pretty serious about it, and made good money there. "What type of blogging are you doing?" I chose a platform (dev.to) and started writing about my weekly learnings in my dev job. React, React-Native, WebPack, Node.js, etc. Later, I moved to DevOps stuff with AWS, Pulumi, Serverless, etc. I got between 1000 and 10000 views per article and was Dev.to Distinguished Author for two years. If you put quality stuff out that people want, sooner or later you get some interest. Not every company has AWS or Vercel reach/money and can hire the top 1% of content creators. On my website, you can see some of my clients. Not FAANG-Tier, but not no-name agency either. https://kay.is https://kay.is
felipefar 2y ago
Just wanted to share that I've found part-time roles hard to get by. It seems companies mostly look for full-time employees. This is unfortunate because it makes harder to keep working on personal projects on the side, because you either have to make them lucrative to let you work on them full-time, or you have to squeeze them during night-time, when you are tired from daily work.
- lobsterthief 2y ago
  I’ve found it’s best to squeeze them in the morning, before you’re tired from daily work ;) But I understand not everybody can function well that early
  - em-bee 2y ago
    when i was in highschool, i used to get up at 5am to do my homework. it was quiet (and i was sharing my room with my brothers) and i was awake. best time of day to get work done. i think when applying that to your side project, it has the added benefit that you start into the day doing something worthwhile which can be encouraging (no matter how bad it gets at work, i already did something useful today)
    - senorrib 2y ago
      I began doing that much later in my life, but totally worth it.
- probably_wrong 2y ago
  Whenever a recruiter contacts me and I say I'm looking for a part-time job, they ghost me. They don't even say "that's not what we're after", just... nothing. Not even dating apps have been this rude to me.
  - danenania 2y ago
    I hate to say it because it many companies will be extremely frustrated if you do this, but if you just want to maximize self-interest the move is definitely to go through the whole interview process without mentioning that you want part time, then bring it up at the offer stage. Some will be annoyed, but you’ll avoid getting filtered out before meeting an actual decision maker who can make an exception for you if they like you.
mariorojas 2y ago
I have never worked in PT jobs, but as a contractor based in Mexico, I usually apply for remote positions on LinkedIn, particularly in SAP Commerce development.
djaouen 2y ago
Honestly, I am open to any Linux-related opportunity that comes my way: that number has been 0 lol
rossdavidh 2y ago
1) It will probably not be "consistent", so you need to ask for more pay than you require, so you can last through the droughts. 2) Your best opportunities are places you've already worked, because they know you and you know at least some of their infrastructure, code base, etc. 3) Very small companies are more likely to need a generalist, and be unable to pay for a full-time on-staff person. You will need to let a lot of small companies know what you can do, and spend a lot of hours doing that, which no one will pay you for.
Aurornis 2y ago
> Ideally, I would get 10-15/hr a week retainers, but project-based work is ok too. The key is that I can keep getting the work with consistency. Work like this is more commonly described as freelance, consulting, or contracting. If a job is advertised as "part-time" they're usually expecting you to work every single one of those hours, unlike a retainer where you're expected to be available for up to that many hours. It may sound pedantic but it's important to understand the difference when searching for roles. If you take a "part-time" job they're generally going to want you to be working for every one of those hours, even if you have to find your own work to do. If you treat it like a retainer job where you're only expected to be on-call if they need you, you could run into some disappointment. Using the right terms will also help you find roles that more correctly match your expectations. True part-time work is hard to find because most companies would rather hire someone to work 4 x 40 hour weeks on a project instead over the part timer who wants to do it in 8 x 20 hour weeks or 16 x 10 hour weeks. This leaves work that is sporadic and spread out, or companies that have a need but can't fit full-time compensation into the budget right now. That's a hint for the type of work and companies you'll need to seek out. Trying to pitch yourself as a valuable contractor who needs 3-4X longer to finish a project due to your short workweek isn't a winning strategy for most jobs.
- danenania 2y ago
  I think it depends a lot on supply and demand dynamics for the specific role. If the company is having a hard time finding someone qualified and they see you as a good fit, they definitely might prefer to get someone working part time immediately compared to waiting who knows how long for another good candidate. This especially applies to startups under time pressure. And then once you get in the door and show you’re a net positive, why not keep you? 15 hours per week of net positive is better than 0, even if they’d really prefer 40+.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    I've been on the managing side of part-time employees. We did part time when people were going back for advanced degrees or had other short-term needs away from work, but still wanted to keep their jobs. Unfortunately it's really hard to have one person working 10-15 hours per week while everyone else is working 40. You encounter a lot of situations where teams are delaying meetings until the part-time person is available. You have to catch the part-time person up on things that have changed while they were away. If the part-time person doesn't finish an important task before their 10-15 hours is up, someone else might have to take it and restart the task to remove it as a blocker. It only really works when the part-time person's project is really independent and not time sensitive. Anything that interacts with the rest of the team or the rest of the company comes with additional overhead that might come close to cancelling out the productivity of having one person working 10 hours per week. There's a lot of wishful thinking about part time work where all hours worked contribute equally to the project, but in the real world having 4 full-time employees and 1 part-time person working 10 hours on a project is basically the same as having just 4 full-time employees working on the same thing. Having only 4 full-time employees might even be more efficient due to the lower communication overhead. So that leaves independent projects and work that isn't time sensitive.
liontwist 2y ago
The arrangement you are looking for is typically for people who have contributed to an organization for decades, have a lot of organizational knowledge, and are close to retiring. - working part-time primarily solves a problem for you, not the employer. - pay is not a linear function of time. your value drops when you aren’t available during working hours or skipping initiatives, etc. - you are signaling to the organization that you’re not really into their thing and to yourself that you are not willing to take risk on your own thing (Paul G writes about this). I would advocate for working hard full-time to capture your full value, and then take time off to do other things.
kmoser 2y ago
Long time freelancer here (decades). I've gotten 99% of my contracts through word-of-mouth. You will get better long-term results than simply grinding through job boards (which you should still do--you never know). You will want to do two things: 1) Cultivate your existing network. Just the other day I reconnected with a friend I haven't seen in several decades. Guess what? He just so happened to be a software dev, and needed another dev to help him with a project. This is just one of many, many stories I have. Call or email people to see how they're doing. Even better, meet up with them for coffee or a meal. This doesn't have to be mercenary; you're probably already doing those things. But start reaching deeper into your network. 2) Build your your network by meeting others in your field and/or potential customers in person (e.g. at user groups, meetups, tech talks, etc.). Talk about what you do and love to do. Presumably that involves your skills that you want to get work in. Finally, be consistent and reliable and communicate clearly. As for selling yourself when you're more of a generalist, I wouldn't worry too much about this yet. The key will be when you're presented with a job opportunity that leans in one direction (e.g. 90% dev, 10% management), and you'll have to decide how far you're willing to bend to fit it. But right now you're just getting the word out.
- kevinsync 2y ago
  I'm a sucker for replying to any sort of "how do I [career]" HN posts if they're relevant to my own experience, just can't help myself. I also freelance exclusively, and opportunities come from word of mouth + the personal network that I've built over years of working with (or in) digital agencies. Full-timers jump from agency to agency at a fairly high clip and it's inevitable to run into people you've worked with before because they eventually need somebody and just think back to who they worked with in the past who they have fond memories of. Generalism isn't a hindrance IMO because the job itself, like it or not, is a service job. You're not there to learn on the job, be part of the family, or find growth opportunities / upward career tracks inside of the organization -- you're there to help solve immediate problems, augment staff, and by God get things done. The more you know, the better! The way project resourcing works internally in these places is, the wider the skillset, the easier it is to slot you into a particular project that needs extra attention. The engagements are also pretty low risk for the agency since whatever you charge, they just inflate your rate to make sure they make money and pass it on to the client (which almost always gets paid), deliverables get delivered, the client is happy, and life marches on -- and if you're ineffective, they can just let you go with no notice, no offboarding, no extra costs, etc. For me personally, that's a win-win. For a lot of people, it's too much stress / risk / uncertainty, but different strokes for different folks! Every now and then I'll get a gig or retainer that's more in line with "we're a small, thriving business, we need expertise, we have some budget, but we've also had bad experiences with small-to-medium tech shops. Help!" -- these are right in my wheelhouse because it's an easy retainer, quite low-risk for the client, and you can really make some meaningful impact on their bottom line as just one person. You become "their guy", and the relationships can last for years and years and years. Again, this is a service job, and generalism REALLY helps on these types of engagements -- to be clear, you're not being paid to R&D a product or do academic research on cutting-edge algorithms -- you're just helping a client or business navigate the often-murky waters of technology to help them win. It might not sound "world-changing" in the context of big tech, but it can be quite satisfying work that really means something significant to real people just trying their best to make their thing go. Anyways, to OP, good luck man! There's infinite opportunity out there if you've got the personality and the drive!
lucasluitjes 2y ago
> How do you sell yourself if you're more of a generalist like me? I focus on small firms. They don't have the resources or amount of work to hire a full-time (or multiple full-time) person for each role. If you can do many roles well, they don't have to source/vet a super-part-time person for each role. > leaving me time and flexibility to work on my own project. I think there's a bit of give-and-take there. Early on I try to look extra hard for any opportunity to show I can be flexible if they need something, and give them no reason to doubt my ability to deliver. Pretty soon trust is established, and I have all the time and flexibility I need to work on other projects alongside. > The key is that I can keep getting the work with consistency. My experience is my clients often don't know beforehand how long-term/consistent the work will be. But if I'm reliable and helpful, it usually turns into a long-term relationship. > How are you finding part-time work? HN seeking freelancer thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=whoishiring https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=whoishiring) got me a particularly nice gig, also meetups, and most of all staying in touch with people I've worked with before. For the latter two, I try to focus on quality over quantity. The handful of people who know me well, tend put me in touch with better matching gigs than the large group of superficial contacts. Cold-emailing/cold-calling companies that look like they may be a good fit, also worked. Personally I find it a bit draining so I avoid cold-anything if I can.
- brokegrammer 2y ago
  I also enjoy working on small firms. My current network IRL is small, so I want to use things like "seeking freelancer" more but I'm not good at standing out. What did you post in the thread that got you the gig?
  - lucasluitjes 2y ago
    My comment history is short if you're curious about the comment itself. But in general for writing sales copy, I found The Copywriter's Handbook by Robert Bly very helpful, especially the first five chapters. Some of it can seem a bit sleazy to IT folks (the book is primarily written for people who write ads for a living) but there's great advice in there.
hakanderyal 2y ago
If you are asking this question, probably the best answer for you is old fashioned sales/marketing. Relatively high paying jobs usually fulfilled via network, which happens the way you described ("land in my lap"). You need to do marketing activities to extend your network, so more work lands in your lap. In person works best if where you live has opportunities for this. Try chamber of commerce if there is one. They usually have lots of events for local business owners where you can meet with many potential customers. Try cold emailing otherwise, it has the best ROI when done right. Bonus points: This skills will be needed to get the project you are working on off the ground too.
jimnotgym 2y ago
I feel your pain My cross over is Finance and tech. I get all the time, 'I really need someone like you' but never a solid commitment. I had to change jobs earlier this year and all these contacts evaporated! I really would like to help a series of companies rather than just one for 5 years at a time.
deadbabe 2y ago
Honestly you’re better off finding a full time remote job at a slower paced company where it’s feasible to work on two things at once. Part time work isn’t consistent and it pays so little it’s hardly worth it.
- em-bee 2y ago
  how do you identify such a company?
  - deadbabe 2y ago
    Big established companies where new features require lots of meetings and planning. Definitely not “move fast and break things” type startups that don’t have enough engineers. Things breaking creates more work.
cbracketdash 2y ago
This just rose to the top of HN today :) https://www.fractionaljobs.io/ https://www.fractionaljobs.io/
CMCDragonkai 2y ago
My company often hires for part time workers. It's like multiplexing, there is a market for squeezing out some efficiency.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Does it need part-time devs right now?
  - CMCDragonkai 2y ago
    We can accommodate it. Send in an application here https://careers.matrix.ai/32873 https://careers.matrix.ai/32873
4m1rk 2y ago
I've always been craving freelance/part-time/project-based gigs so that I could live with the dream of building my side projects into a real business. Back in my home country, I built a good network of clients/co-workers and it was working relatively well until we relocated to another country and the work visa forced me to become full-time. After a few years, about 2 years ago I was free, so I started from scratch, now in a different country. It didn't take me too long to find out the rules are the same everywhere. Now, I'm marketing myself as a Fractional Head of Engineering for small teams[1]. This is a kind of generalist hands-on role and a good position for small businesses, but it won't work for large organizations which usually have better budgets. Regarding finding gigs, as everyone mentioned, networking is the best though it takes huge effort and time IMO. But it's 100x more efficient than applying in generic job boards or freelance marketplaces (which are the worst in my experience). However, some specialized boards have worked well for me. Like HN whoishiring posts for freelancers[2]. I actually built a super simple tool[3] to hunt part-time/freelance/contract jobs from HN. I found one good client using it within two months. BTW, Though it's rare, I ended up finding another fractional gig by advertising myself in the same HN whoishiring thread. [1] https://amirkarimi.dev/ https://amirkarimi.dev/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring [3] https://fraction.works/ https://fraction.works/
23B1 2y ago
A lot of people will say "word of mouth" without defining it. The key is to have regular but not annoying conversations with prospects. Don't put them on a mailing list (unless you're somehow uniquely interesting and cool, I guess) but send them personalized emails every so once in a while - these can be "oh I thought you'd find this interesting" (and it has to actually be interesting to them) or just a short hello reminding them that you're always looking for work. And I mean SHORT. "Hey just checking in, really enjoyed working with you, please keep me in mind if you're looking for help!" I've tried it all, from personal CRMs to complex alerting and the bottom line is that nobody's going to do the extra work to get you involved unless they have a no-pressure, friendly connection with you. Most of my high-paying and regular clients we just text message, maybe once every six months or so. Casual, friendly, no pressure is the key.
deleted 2y ago
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Hashex129542 2y ago
from my experience, because of lucrative part time work, I lost almost all. I regret that I shouldn't touched part time work instead, I should've built my own business as my several clients told me to do 5 years ago.
- ayewo 2y ago
  Please go on … don’t leave us hanging about your story :)
  - Hashex129542 2y ago
    'us' --> ??? I shared my experience. I never compelled your team to stick with my comment. In fact, I don't care about it all, I can simply edit my comment to nothing. There is no loss to me :) But the problem is I can't edit. But sure I never share my experience to anyone from now. Stay happy!!!
blisterpeanuts 2y ago
I found a couple of small projects on upwork, and also got scammed on upwork, so be careful. I left a job after 12 years, and a couple of years later got re-hired on a part time retainer basis to help fix mistakes that have crept into the product, and to help support current and prospective customers. Nice gig, zero pressure. I agree with others that networking helps land jobs, especially in the borderless internet era where people from all over the world are competing for work. It’s a race to the bottom.
lylo 2y ago
LinkedIn, then word of mouth.
GianFabien 2y ago
I have found that the most lucrative work is when something needs to be done ASAP! I'm happy to work 60-80 hours a week to deliver a specific result. Generally over a period of 1-3 months. I charge like a plumber/lawyer. So there's usually a pause of a month or two between gigs. Averaged out over a year or more it does look like part-time.
- leros 2y ago
  That's something I'd be fine to do. I'm generally looking for some time flexibility that can't be had in a traditional full time job.
strzibny 2y ago
1, previous employer 2, based on my Kamal blog posts and making Kamal Handbook
greenie_beans 2y ago
i found some part-time work on reddit. it's hard to work enough at that low amount of time each week so that the output keeps a manager happy.
svilen_dobrev 2y ago
mmh, i see here some new "term", or new meaning of old term.. that might be useful.. that fractional thing. You know, being a generalist, and helping some company, means you are 5/8 of something, 1/3 of another, 1/7 of yet another, and 3/10 of... And These don't have to sum up to 1.0, they are in different dimensions. It's like wearing-many-hats at same time (i think this was the wording so far), but this way may be better. As you may be at 100% a CTO today but not being the best-specialized-CTO-ever, and 30% tester tomorrow (this time being the best possible tester), and a little bit of architect in the meantime, and code something to try it out, and/or fix a dreaded bug, etc.. And this fractional essence somehow aligns with my idea from few years ago that software-making as profession is being commoditized. Pick-n-match whatever is on display?. Interesting what will come after that. But i have been staying away from the corporate highways / market-squares ... and as marketing/sales isn't my thing.. even if it is about selling meself. Networking? hmm. not really working. 4 months already. ah anyway. Have fun.
factorialboy 2y ago
After becoming sick of Upwork and the likes, a bunch of us started the Dutch Freelance Collective - dutchfreelance.org - to find local, freelance projects. This has worked out well till now. I recommend finding local gigs, wherever you may be.
PrimaryAlibi 2y ago
To become a freelancer you first need to be a professional with a lot of work experience. Then you can start doing some freelance on the side and make it grow. It's very difficult to start your career as freelance. To find part time job you first need to be able to find a job at all. Basically no matter what, it all begins with getting work experience, probably full time, then after that you can start looking for part time or freelance.

leros 2y ago
That sounds exactly like what I'm trying to do. I have no experience with the agency world and most of my contacts are in giant corporations. Do you think it would help to do some work in the agency world?
- kevinsync 2y ago
  I guess it depends on what country you live in; I'm in the US, not sure what it's like elsewhere with regards to advertising, but if USA-based then yeah I would pursue that. Initially it'll probably be easier via a recruiter who already has a relationship with the agency where they bring you in and put you on the bench until a gig opens up. From what I've seen, brands (clients) rarely do much in-house -- they hire agencies (for periods of time, then will go to others depending upon results), sometimes hire as Agency of Record for a period of time as well (all creative, from web/app/digital through social management, media, print, etc, flows through their AOR) -- everything runs on quarterly client budgets (so frequent initiatives that "ladder up" to XYZ intangible "KPI" -- you'll get used to the arbitrary and capricious lingo) -- and it's really not that far off from a modern version of Mad Men. "Agency life" is another phrase that encapsulates "we probably have time management issues and/or over-commit to stuff, so if you want to succeed in this business, be willing to be patient, present and available for the duration and parameters of the project" -- as a freelancer though, you get paid by the hour, rather than being a salaryman. I did 15 years of full-time employment, salaried. Overtime === a slice of pizza, a pat on the back, a vague promise of promotion; as a freelancer, it's dollars-per-hour, nothing more nothing less, you get paid for your efforts. I've only been fortunate enough to benefit from that having done full-time salaryman in these places long enough to meet enough people and make enough contributions to become a known quantity. That said, I do have friends though that were ONLY contractors the entire time, usually via a recruiter as mentioned above, they worked in the same places on the same projects, and they've been able to flip that into similar situations or even full-time with the companies they gelled with the most. There are a bunch of ways to approach it, but the fluid, always-changing clientele of ad agencies provides quite a lot of opportunities for work that isn't just "employee".

catigula 2y ago

It is truly an extravert's world. What you just described sounds like torture to me.

cpfohl 2y ago
Networking is not just for extroverts. One on one time with friends, and small group networking is still valuable networking.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  > One on one time with friends, and small group networking is still valuable networking. Sure, but it isn't as likely to get you new opportunities in new fields the way being extroverted is.
  - cpfohl 2y ago
    I accept that premise if the goal is opportunity in novel fields. If the goal is simply landing an opportunity I think he introvert’s approach is actually more powerful. The extrovert has loads of low probability opportunities; they tend to be more varied due to the breadth of their networking. The introvert is selling to people they know; if they get to the point where they are asking for the opportunity I predict they land a larger percentage than the extrovert. Because they’re drawn from a smaller network, however, they are also likely to be in narrower fields.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      there are always different levels. what you say depends having friends and the ability to keep in touch with them in the first place. and not be shy to ask them after not talking to them for a long time. i struggle with that, and i only have a handful of people i could even ask. so far my network of people i already know is useless, and i feel like i have more chances to find new people, which requires going to events and meet new faces. except that only works in large cities with an active event scene. so no, being an introvert is a handicap and not an advantage.
billy99k 2y ago
How do you expect to be successful at anything without being somewhat social?
- hnthrowaway121 2y ago
  They might not. That’s why they’d describe it as “an extrovert’s world”.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    It is at some level if you take definitions to extremes. If you actively avoid conversations and socializing with other people, you will probably suffer personally and professionally. Of course, that doesn't mean you always have to be the "life of the party."
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      I’m not sure if suffer is the right word. Some people prefer a quiet life and accept what comes with that, because that’s what they want. And that’s fine. Of course if you want to live a quiet life and avoid socializing very much, and want to be a successful independent contractor, those might be fairly incompatible goals.
      - shadowerm 2y ago
        This all really has nothing to do with extroversion to me. We are talking about what is essentially sales and marketing skills. I am the life of the party but I would never try to freelance because I hate sales and marketing so much. This is all really asking how to start a business without having to do sales and marketing. Obviously, that is not going to work. One can either gain these skills or do something else.
        ghaff 2y ago
        There are some correlations. But I agree that you can be extroverted (whatever that means exactly) but most sales and marketing roles (which vary quite a bit) just don't appeal.
        SoftTalker 2y ago
bdndndndbve 2y ago
Contracting as a solo dev is taking on sales and marketing as well as development. You have to charge accordingly. But you also have to be comfortable doing all of those roles, or else you won't have any work.
- ghaff 2y ago
  You seem to have a lot of people on forums like this who are just looking for some magical web form to fill out which will result in money flowing in after a couple of emails. Maybe that exists for some really transactional low-paid small tasks. But, as you say, it's not the reality for most opportunities. In "semi-retirement" (as I prefer to call it), I've contacted various people I know about random possibilities, that may or may not bring in any money, but it keeps doors open. If that's "torture" (per an upstream comment) I don't know what to say.
kmoser 2y ago
Does sending emails to people in your network fall into the torture category as well? (Serious question, not judging.) Because if it is, I'm wondering what is the exact pain point: composing the email? Sending it and not feeling silly? Something else?
- deanmoriarty 2y ago
  In the vast majority of cases, when I left a job I was genuinely excited about never having to see or talk to any of my coworkers/managers for the rest of my life, so breaking such streak with an intentional outreach would qualify as lightweight torture to me. In a career of 15+ years I don’t think I have ever reached out to an ex coworker, not even once. My current company happens to be particularly “prestigious” at this point in time and I have received hundreds (yes, 100+) of LinkedIn messages from ex coworkers ranging from “meet and catch up” to “can you refer me there”. Some have gone as far as finding my phone number and texting me, after they didn’t receive a reply on LinkedIn. The nerve someone has after causing me so much pain and stress during code reviews or random acts of corporate backstabbing to ask for a referral years later. I ignored each and every one of them. I am not saying this is healthy at all and I well understand the problem is “me”, I would say I suffer from quite a bit of misanthropy against pretty much every coworker I ever had, and on top of that I am an extreme introvert, relationships forced upon me cause a lot of contempt. Fortunately I have a very small circle of people that I love (wife, blood family and a few good friends), so despite the misery of my comments I am not too unhappy when I’m not at work. To be clear, I am not the one looking for part-time gigs, I have decided that the solution to my struggles is to become financially independent via above-average frugality and diligent savings/investing, and then withdraw from the obligations of modern work. Technically I am already there, just trying to find the courage to quit my current (and last) job.
  - sfn42 2y ago
    You think every single one of your coworkers "cause you pain and stress during code reviews"? Yeah man, the problem is 100% you. That's a crazy thing to say. Have you ever seen a therapist? And how in the world do you expect these people to just magically know that you're a weirdo? The nerve to reach out after having reviewed your code.. man I'm baffled.
anbotero 2y ago
Not sure if being an introvert should be a limiting factor. I love my “bat cave”, working from home (live alone), I don’t generally like talking to people, even about relatable topics, but I noticed precisely what the OP is saying, the benefits of some interactions, even if they are not my cup of tea, so I kind of trained myself to go to (some) Meetups, conferences, talk to people, even at work (social channels). I forced myself through ALL of those at first. Now I’m pickier, but I can find myself enjoying most of the ones I pick. I’m not saying introverts should become extroverts, as long as we don’t dismiss the benefits of (some times) behaving like the other.

memjay 2y ago

Software dev, curious about freelancing here. Just recently deleted my LinkedIn profile out of being disappointed with the value it brought to me over several years of using it. Instead, I now note down relevant contacts in a private “CRM”. Do you think it is important to have a public facing profile of yourself and your work history for attracting new clients or is a broad in person network more relevant?

itbeho 2y ago
I've been on Linkedin from the start and I don't think I've ever gotten work or meaningful benefit from it other than seeing what some acquaintances have been up to over the years and occasionally getting a message from an old friend reaching out to catch up personally.
- ghaff 2y ago
  It's a useful online Rolodex (to show my age). I've had a few recruiters reach out over the years but it's never been useful for that purpose beyond that.
Bilal_io 2y ago
Some new people you meet will prefer to see who you are by looking you up online. At least to me, someone's online presence is a testimony that the person is who they claim to be when it comes to their experience.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I’m the opposite, I think online profiles are completely untrustworthy and likely as not to be filled with exaggerations or outright lies. But I’m probably in the minority?
kmoser 2y ago
This shouldn't be an either/or thing. Any public facing profile, especially on a platform like LinkedIn which is large and has many eyes on it, is better than none if you're looking to get the word out. I've had a LinkedIn profile from nearly the beginning, and although I nearly never use it, I am occasionally contacted by people about work. If I spent even an iota of time filling out my profile and posting regularly, it would probably bring me many offers. (Whether they'd be what I'm looking for is another story.) If I had to choose between a public facing profile or a broad in person network, I'd choose the in person network. But you really shouldn't discount the online profile, since it's free advertising for you.

bilsbie 2y ago

> Call or email people to see how they're doing. Even better, meet up with them for coffee or a meal I like this idea but it feels inauthentic. Can you share examples of how you broach this?

anomaloustho 2y ago
Side note: I’ve found that it’s never quite so binary. I can enjoy having a beer with someone and shooting the breeze, while also talking about work and jobs. Your gardener might be the person who finds you on the floor choking and saves your life. Your coworker who you don’t even really know might be moved to donate an organ to you. Humans are complex.
invalidOrTaken 2y ago
The key is to mean it. Then it's not inauthentic.
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  I also find that proposition very inauthentic because the first reason for the approach is showing interest to your friend (how do they do?) but he second reason is literally (not judging) selfish (how can I get a new job?). Someone call you after 10 years to know how you do, precisely at the same time he look for a job… what a coincidence! He might genuinely care for me but the original reason of his call wasn’t that and he probably wouldn’t have call me if not. I would receive better an honest call: "hey I know its been 10 years but I look for a job, any idea?” Some people around me find that way of communicating too direct and impolite. I find it genuine. But I’m probably the one that should be fixed, others seems to find relations easy and pleasant.
  - invalidOrTaken 2y ago
    I have in mind a friend who on first contact, comes off as somewhat superficial and business-brained, b/c he's always hitting people up for lunches, or calls, and likes to talk about jobs. The thing is, he does that all the time. Employed, unemployed, rain, shine. And he doesn't just like to talk about (or look for) opportunities for him, but for everyone else, too. So over time, you realize that's just how he is/what he does, and it comes across as completely natural. He's one of my best friends, honestly.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    I agree with you :-) I like the "Hey it's been 10 years and now ..." approach. Nothing strange about that at all? It's just not possible to stay in active contact with everyone one has met in life and likes being with. (Well, of course it depends)
garrickvanburen 2y ago
“Hey it’s been forever, grab a coffee and share what we’re both working on and how we might help each other?”
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  That doesn't come across as authentic, that comes across as transactional and having an agenda. "Hey, it's been forever, want to catch up over some food?" If you end up hearing about a useful opportunity, or providing them with a useful opportunity, great. But you still got to catch up with a friend, and came across as that being the primary goal. If you are looking for part-time work, it's fine to say that, and there's nothing wrong with reaching out to friends to find out if they know of good job opportunities. But "share what we're both working on and how we might help each other?". That comes across terribly.
  - garrickvanburen 2y ago
    In my experience, it's a coin toss on whether having the last bit increases or decreases a chance of the appointment being made. Some people require it. Ultimately the only thing that matters is: you have a phrase that you can say comfortably and expresses genuine curiosity about the other person.
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  Accepting this type of invite is how I got pitched Amway. Twice. The go-getter networking ethos of founders and small business owners can be hard to distinguish from the way MLMs find and prey on people.
  - neilv 2y ago
    > The go-getter networking ethos of founders and small business owners can be hard to distinguish from the way MLMs find and prey on people. Aren't all those the same thing? A different thing would be someone wanting to meet up only because they wanted to see you (not to nurture or harvest a resource).
hsuduebc2 2y ago
It does radiate "selling an insurance to old buddy" vibe.
kmoser 2y ago
Like I alluded to in my comment where I said it doesn't have to be mercenary: if you would otherwise have a reason to get together with somebody in person, make plans to do it. It can be one-on-one or with others, but the point is that the main reason for the meeting is social, i.e. you're doing exactly what you would have normally done. Then, during the customary "what's new with you?" part of the conversation you can let them know what type of work you do and that you're looking for. The main point is that you're actively seeking to get together with your friends, rather than waiting for them to call you. This is just keeping your network warm and planting seeds; you're not grilling them for job opportunities, and there is nothing inauthentic about it since it truly is a social call. Think of it as a slow burn, or the long game, or whatever metaphor works. When it comes to people you don't know well enough to ask to get together with in person, shoot them an email or text. There's nothing wrong with being up front with what you're looking for, e.g. "Hey Joe, this is Mike (friend of your acquaintance Jane from Company XYZ), just letting you know I'm focusing on technical project management [or whatever] these days, wondering if you know of any part time opportunities in the field?" Receiving this request from an acquaintance is light years more acceptable than receiving it from a total stranger.

deanmoriarty 2y ago
> You think every single one of your coworkers "cause you pain and stress during code reviews"? Yes, I have a right to have an opinion on how other people’s behaviors make me feel, and so long as I’m still functional at work it’s not a problem (and I am, I always put up a good face and don’t cause any drama, I will refactor my perfectly working PR 1000 times to make all the nitpickers happy). Fortunately “being functional” doesn’t require to answer their referral or Zoom request years later, the hell with that, why would I want those people in my life again. I simply have no tolerance for most coworkers and managers, it is not that hard to believe and I know a lot of people who despise their coworkers, I am not a unicorn. My spouse is pretty much the same and has her own small solo business because she couldn’t stand the 9 to 5. My dad, a very wise man living in a different side of the world and the happiest person I know, decided in his 30s after a corporate stint that he couldn’t live his life being told what to do by managers and coworkers, and became entrepreneur. Clearly he had ups and downs, but he has always been very happy with the independence this choice afforded him. I earn 7 figures a year through my job in Silicon Valley and so I am putting up with this fundamental pain until I have enough to withdraw, which should be soon!
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  > I simply have no tolerance for most coworkers and managers, it is not that hard to believe and I know a lot of people who despise their coworkers, I am not a unicorn If you have the same experience with most of your coworkers whenever you go, perhaps your coworkers aren't the problem?
  - deanmoriarty 2y ago
    From above: > I well understand the problem is “me”, I would say I suffer from quite a bit of misanthropy against pretty much every coworker I ever had, and on top of that I am an extreme introvert, relationships forced upon me cause a lot of contempt.
- sfn42 2y ago
  Sure you're allowed to feel that way, I just think it's ridiculous to phrase it the way you did above. I'm sure a lot of people have issues with some of their coworkers, but hating all of them across multiple jobs is insane. If you smell shit everywhere you go you probably need a shower.
- ldbooth 2y ago
  Damn this is a bleak view of the world. > Yes, I have a right to have an opinion on how other people’s behaviors make me feel, how others act is outside your control. how you interpret and 'feel' is within your control, and quite empowering when you take the reins. > and so long as I’m still functional at work it’s not a problem But what about when you retire and carry this this forward, likely alone. Sounds like you have 'good' problems. Good luck to you.
  - deanmoriarty 2y ago
    > But what about when you retire and carry this forward, likely alone. Curious what you mean by this: once I retire from work, what life situations will force me to be in close contact for 10+ hours a day, for years, with people I wouldn’t otherwise want to deal with, ready to cast their arbitrary negative judgement on everything I do and put pressure on me due to their own demons, pet peeves and rat race ambitions that I couldn’t care less about? Because that’s really my problem, I have wonderful relationships with wife/family/etc., with whom I am very much aligned in terms of life goals, so these issues do not occur outside of work, or are temporary. I expect my early retirement to be just wonderful, and I can’t wait for it to happen. I just reached 100X living expenses in 2024 thanks to a generous market, just looking for one final 401k max out in 2025 and a tiny bit of courage!