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So. Can we put the idea to bed about bad Putin, poor Russians ? This is a marketing video aimed at parents enrolling their kids. That they want you to see this

So. Can we put the idea to bed about bad Putin, poor Russians ? This is a marketing video aimed at parents enrolling their kids. That they want you to see this tells a hell of a lot about societal values. Go look up some of the surviving Hitler jugend footage, or the militaristic scouts clubs in later East-Germany. Isn't it getting a little too close for comfort ?

xanderlewis 2y ago
It’s a matter of poor brainwashed people. So, yes — it is the people of Russia’s fault, but not everyone has access to sensible information. And any given individual, quite rationally, doesn’t want to risk their life to make a pointless stand. Also, I guess many find it hard to believe their beloved country could really be so corrupt and perpetrate such evil. And that’s understandable.
- usrusr 2y ago
  Being $bad because of $ideology is no excuse for being $bad. That causal vector can be amazingly helpful for forgiveness at a later point in time, but forgiveness cannot start before being $bad stops. Preemptive forgiveness is a terrible idea.
- troad 2y ago
  Letting yourself buy into the regime narratives takes, at the very least, complicity. The people in Russia know the state narrative is unreliable. They know there exist other narratives out there. They choose not to seek them out. It's wilful oblivion. Wired published a great recount of what choosing oblivion looks like, and how it fails you: https://www.wired.com/story/russia-invaded-ukraine-choice-propaganda-death/ https://www.wired.com/story/russia-invaded-ukraine-choice-pr... (https://archive.is/ZkYzd https://archive.is/ZkYzd).
  - dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
    > They choose not to seek them out. Some of them. And the answer to "how many?" is incredibly hard to answer.
okasaki 2y ago
Aren't you forgetting someone?
orwin 2y ago
Just as individualising Putin 'evil' (for a lack of a better word) is dumb, and you are right to call it out, pushing it on something such as 'values' isn't great either. The material conditions that enable Russian society to be this violent (and this isn't a new thing btw, it's hundreds of years old) are complex, and imho 'values' have pretty much nothing to do with it.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  If you are going to characterise hundreds of years of behaviour in Russia as excessively violent, wouldn’t that indicate a problem with its values?
protomolecule 2y ago
[flagged]
- labster 2y ago
  No, but you can find millions of Russian children being taught that Ukrainians do not exist, and that they are all really Russians, because Vladimir was baptized Orthodox in 980. It’s basically as crazy as saying Canadians don’t exist and are actually a U.S. state. The Azov Batallion was never in the mainstream of Ukrainian culture, but they have been lionized for their defense of Azovstal. Kind of the Johnny Depp of Ukraine — did some really cool stuff but if you look too close goddamn is it problematic.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      And who is building monuments[0] honoring Bandera[1] and names streets[2] after him all over Ukraine? Local governments and various advocacy groups, with no support at the federal level. Meanwhile, a solid component of mainstream Russian society also continues to honor (and more broadly legitimize/normalize) a certain dead fascist icon: A surprisingly large number of Russians even believe that Stalin had mystical powers. As recently as 2003, about 750,000 people voted for a party that aimed to continue what it said was Stalin's attempt to battle the ancient Egyptian priesthood of Ra, which supposedly runs the world from its base in Switzerland. https://theweek.com/articles/467027/why-many-russians-still-love-stalin https://theweek.com/articles/467027/why-many-russians-still-... In classrooms across Russia, students are taught out of a modern textbook which represents Stalin as simply an efficient leader who had the unfortunate responsibility to resort to extreme measures to protect Russia and ensure its leadership role on a global scale.[57] A poll in 2019 found that 70% of Russians believed that Stalin had a positive impact on Russian history, while 51% of people in Russia viewed Stalin with a positive attitude.[58] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin%27s_cult_of_personality#Third_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin%27s_cult_of_pers...
labster 2y ago
Government propaganda tells you very little about the society as a whole, especially in authoritarian countries. That said ordinary Muscovites seem to have no qualms about running an imperialist state that concentrates wealth from ethnic minorities into only two regions. Corruption is widely accepted, and self-promoting lies are tolerated as just vranyo. Alcoholism is a massive problem. There’s a pretty high tolerance for violence, since Russia’s casualties in this war dwarf the numbers Americans saw in Vietnam. Plus, the safety regulations are atrocious; important people keep falling out of windows. I think it’s safe to say Russian values are at at the heart of their social problems.

xanderlewis 2y ago

It’s a matter of poor brainwashed people. So, yes — it is the people of Russia’s fault, but not everyone has access to sensible information. And any given individual, quite rationally, doesn’t want to risk their life to make a pointless stand. Also, I guess many find it hard to believe their beloved country could really be so corrupt and perpetrate such evil. And that’s understandable.

usrusr 2y ago
Being $bad because of $ideology is no excuse for being $bad. That causal vector can be amazingly helpful for forgiveness at a later point in time, but forgiveness cannot start before being $bad stops. Preemptive forgiveness is a terrible idea.
troad 2y ago
Letting yourself buy into the regime narratives takes, at the very least, complicity. The people in Russia know the state narrative is unreliable. They know there exist other narratives out there. They choose not to seek them out. It's wilful oblivion. Wired published a great recount of what choosing oblivion looks like, and how it fails you: https://www.wired.com/story/russia-invaded-ukraine-choice-propaganda-death/ https://www.wired.com/story/russia-invaded-ukraine-choice-pr... (https://archive.is/ZkYzd https://archive.is/ZkYzd).
- dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
  > They choose not to seek them out. Some of them. And the answer to "how many?" is incredibly hard to answer.

okasaki 2y ago

Aren't you forgetting someone?

orwin 2y ago

Just as individualising Putin 'evil' (for a lack of a better word) is dumb, and you are right to call it out, pushing it on something such as 'values' isn't great either. The material conditions that enable Russian society to be this violent (and this isn't a new thing btw, it's hundreds of years old) are complex, and imho 'values' have pretty much nothing to do with it.

lostlogin 2y ago
If you are going to characterise hundreds of years of behaviour in Russia as excessively violent, wouldn’t that indicate a problem with its values?

protomolecule 2y ago

[flagged]

labster 2y ago
No, but you can find millions of Russian children being taught that Ukrainians do not exist, and that they are all really Russians, because Vladimir was baptized Orthodox in 980. It’s basically as crazy as saying Canadians don’t exist and are actually a U.S. state. The Azov Batallion was never in the mainstream of Ukrainian culture, but they have been lionized for their defense of Azovstal. Kind of the Johnny Depp of Ukraine — did some really cool stuff but if you look too close goddamn is it problematic.
- protomolecule 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    And who is building monuments[0] honoring Bandera[1] and names streets[2] after him all over Ukraine? Local governments and various advocacy groups, with no support at the federal level. Meanwhile, a solid component of mainstream Russian society also continues to honor (and more broadly legitimize/normalize) a certain dead fascist icon: A surprisingly large number of Russians even believe that Stalin had mystical powers. As recently as 2003, about 750,000 people voted for a party that aimed to continue what it said was Stalin's attempt to battle the ancient Egyptian priesthood of Ra, which supposedly runs the world from its base in Switzerland. https://theweek.com/articles/467027/why-many-russians-still-love-stalin https://theweek.com/articles/467027/why-many-russians-still-... In classrooms across Russia, students are taught out of a modern textbook which represents Stalin as simply an efficient leader who had the unfortunate responsibility to resort to extreme measures to protect Russia and ensure its leadership role on a global scale.[57] A poll in 2019 found that 70% of Russians believed that Stalin had a positive impact on Russian history, while 51% of people in Russia viewed Stalin with a positive attitude.[58] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin%27s_cult_of_personality#Third_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin%27s_cult_of_pers...

labster 2y ago

Government propaganda tells you very little about the society as a whole, especially in authoritarian countries. That said ordinary Muscovites seem to have no qualms about running an imperialist state that concentrates wealth from ethnic minorities into only two regions. Corruption is widely accepted, and self-promoting lies are tolerated as just vranyo. Alcoholism is a massive problem. There’s a pretty high tolerance for violence, since Russia’s casualties in this war dwarf the numbers Americans saw in Vietnam. Plus, the safety regulations are atrocious; important people keep falling out of windows. I think it’s safe to say Russian values are at at the heart of their social problems.