3 ms·

It seemed like you were questioning the need for the institution, but public health is as needed as defense, so maybe you’re equating them. You left out vaccin

by wrs 2y ago

It seemed like you were questioning the need for the institution, but public health is as needed as defense, so maybe you’re equating them. You left out vaccinations (obviously effective) and mask mandates (somewhat effective but certainly falls under minor inconvenience) — which are pretty standard public health playbook, so I’m assuming those aren’t considered part of the madness. The lockdowns were pretty crazy, but recall their goal was mostly to avoid the breakdown of the entire health care system pre-vaccination. There wasn’t any precedent for how to do that.

roenxi 2y ago
> You left out vaccinations (obviously effective) and mask mandates (somewhat effective but certainly falls under minor inconvenience) The authoritarian tactics used to impose both of those were ineffective, or at least can't be justified on the evidence. Otherwise all the people trying to justify their brush with their inner Nazi would be able to put up a good argument for what they advocated for. Both measures failed to stop the spread of COVID, the evidence they had any effect on the number of people who eventually caught it is hard to some up with even as a thought experiment (elsewhere in the thread Retric theorised that the change in viral load would be significant, which is a weak attempt but the best I've seen so far, and also sounds hard to test for). In many cases the vaccines explicit weren't checked for effects on transmission.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Both measures failed to stop the spread of COVID And were never intended to.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Calling that Nazi-like is just pathetic.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Yup - it's just a dumb epithet, in this context. Which ironically suggests a certain authoritarian/bullying streak on the part of the person employing it.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    There was a crisis, they banded together, identified the enemy withing and started a campaign to strip them of their rights. They knew they can't get their way with persuasion so they go straight to coercion and might-makes-right logic. Call them what you want, they aren't principled people. Very much a scum rising to the top scenario. We saw the illiberals making a power play during COVID, they're cut from the same cloth as all the other authoritarians. They were even using the old "you're killing us" logic and people making up a you-struck-first narrative is a reasonable precursor to some really terrible things.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      > identified the enemy within > the old "you're killing us" logic The analogy falls apart when the target is a behavior and not a way to go after any innate qualities that groups of people have.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        If the plan is to defend authoritarianism, I might just observe that "well they're targeting the right groups this time" is not a line that is going to get much traction with me. The problem here is not a group of people you've decided to dehumanise to the point where their basic rights aren't a factor. The problem is authoritarian tactics being visibly and enthusiastically used by people who's role is to uphold the opposite values. If you put people in charge who only believe in using one bad tool, they eventually use it on everyone because they don't understand how to do things in a morally reasonable way.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        I don't want to argue with you about whether it's authoritarian, I just want to say "Nazi" is overblown and ridiculous in this context. > "the right groups" It's not about which groups, it's about how the groups are defined that makes the analogy so broken. Attacking in certain ways based on any nationality is worth a Nazi comparison, while attacking based on mundane choices is not in the same category. > If you put people in charge who only believe in using one bad tool, they eventually use it on everyone because they don't understand how to do things in a morally reasonable way. Does this describe what happened? What is the "one bad tool"? I hope you don't mean "authoritarianism" because that's a circular argument.

by wrs 2y ago

roenxi 2y ago

> You left out vaccinations (obviously effective) and mask mandates (somewhat effective but certainly falls under minor inconvenience) The authoritarian tactics used to impose both of those were ineffective, or at least can't be justified on the evidence. Otherwise all the people trying to justify their brush with their inner Nazi would be able to put up a good argument for what they advocated for. Both measures failed to stop the spread of COVID, the evidence they had any effect on the number of people who eventually caught it is hard to some up with even as a thought experiment (elsewhere in the thread Retric theorised that the change in viral load would be significant, which is a weak attempt but the best I've seen so far, and also sounds hard to test for). In many cases the vaccines explicit weren't checked for effects on transmission.

aguaviva 2y ago
Both measures failed to stop the spread of COVID And were never intended to.
Dylan16807 2y ago
Calling that Nazi-like is just pathetic.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Yup - it's just a dumb epithet, in this context. Which ironically suggests a certain authoritarian/bullying streak on the part of the person employing it.
- roenxi 2y ago
  There was a crisis, they banded together, identified the enemy withing and started a campaign to strip them of their rights. They knew they can't get their way with persuasion so they go straight to coercion and might-makes-right logic. Call them what you want, they aren't principled people. Very much a scum rising to the top scenario. We saw the illiberals making a power play during COVID, they're cut from the same cloth as all the other authoritarians. They were even using the old "you're killing us" logic and people making up a you-struck-first narrative is a reasonable precursor to some really terrible things.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > identified the enemy within > the old "you're killing us" logic The analogy falls apart when the target is a behavior and not a way to go after any innate qualities that groups of people have.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      If the plan is to defend authoritarianism, I might just observe that "well they're targeting the right groups this time" is not a line that is going to get much traction with me. The problem here is not a group of people you've decided to dehumanise to the point where their basic rights aren't a factor. The problem is authoritarian tactics being visibly and enthusiastically used by people who's role is to uphold the opposite values. If you put people in charge who only believe in using one bad tool, they eventually use it on everyone because they don't understand how to do things in a morally reasonable way.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        I don't want to argue with you about whether it's authoritarian, I just want to say "Nazi" is overblown and ridiculous in this context. > "the right groups" It's not about which groups, it's about how the groups are defined that makes the analogy so broken. Attacking in certain ways based on any nationality is worth a Nazi comparison, while attacking based on mundane choices is not in the same category. > If you put people in charge who only believe in using one bad tool, they eventually use it on everyone because they don't understand how to do things in a morally reasonable way. Does this describe what happened? What is the "one bad tool"? I hope you don't mean "authoritarianism" because that's a circular argument.