8 ms·

Isn't the most likely outcome here that the city will simply stop allowing public access to the camera feeds? This feels like it has the potential to be a "thi

by dave78 2y ago

Isn't the most likely outcome here that the city will simply stop allowing public access to the camera feeds? This feels like it has the potential to be a "this is why we can't have nice things" outcome even though I don't think the app author is doing anything wrong.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
euniceee3 2y ago
That is what happened to the local feed for the city I live in. Their mapping data was trash. I went through fixed the GPS, found the typical focalized center of frame, built a basic frontend, and then they shut it all down. I found the dude that ran it and emailed back and forth with him for a few years. They made excuses about how it is an IT issue.
- 7speter 2y ago
  > They made excuses about how it is an IT issue. An ego issue
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Why does NYC even care? This tendency to govern in a controlling way is not just weird but plain unethical. I hope this goes viral and embarrasses them.
- dave78 2y ago
  Agree in spirit, though again if it does go viral and they become embarrassed the most likely thing is they'd shut down public access to the cameras - which would be a lousy outcome for everyone. My county has traffic cameras available online, though it's only static images updated once a minute or so. It's not that great but I still appreciate it, especially during winter weather. Every now and then if the weather seems bad I check the cameras to see what the roads look like before I head out. It's not a big deal, but I'd be a little annoyed if they took away public access because someone was trying to make some sort of statement or game out of them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Spooky23 2y ago
  NYC government is peculiar, in that its size and scope is like a US state, but it also subsumes the functions of US cities and counties. The closest comparison in the US is probably LA County. Thinking about it in terms of technology — during the pandemic the schools bought a million iPads. They also run a giant hospital system, the largest police and fire departments in the country, etc. The net result is administration of a vast, sprawling (both horizontal and vertical) bureaucracy is complex, and the cogs in the wheel of that bureaucracy are simultaneously in your face and detached from reality. So you have a group of attorneys who see a threat in people posing in front of a camera.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    You first paragraph raises some interesting points. It makes wonder if NYC police and fire is larger than that of some smaller countries in Europe, like Belgium or Netherlands. My guess: Yes!
    - ericbarrett 2y ago
      Indeed, the NYPD has 33,000 officers and Belgium's armed forces have 24,000 serving plus 6000 reserve. They also have very similar budgets: $6b vs. €7b.
- noprocrasted 2y ago
  This is an opportunity for bullshitters (in a "bullshit jobs" sense) to be seen as "doing something" and get pats on the back without significant effort - at least less effort than doing other, actually valuable things.
highcountess 2y ago
The response to that should be filing lawsuits to force the government to make public resources like that publicly accessible.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  A you request footage of yourself at a specified place and time? Having a semi automated way of doing that would be far more irritating for them.
autoexec 2y ago
What's the point of making a thing avilable to the public online if you're only going to pull it offline as soon as regular people start using it? I'm sure there are corporations and data brokers quietly collecting info on us using every scrap of publicly avilable data including traffic cams, but the moment regular folks start getting in on the fun and they post a pic of themselves being surveilled on twitter suddenly it's time to shut everything down? If it's a problem as soon as the average American starts using something, it's probably better if those resources stop being made available period.
- gruez 2y ago
  >but the moment regular folks start getting in on the fun and they post a pic of themselves being surveilled on twitter suddenly it's time to shut everything down? There's a pretty big difference between using it for its intended purpose (ie. monitoring traffic), and the alleged behavior that the department of transportation was opposed to. >Office of Legal Affairs recently sent a cease-and-desist letter to Morry Kolman, the artist behind the project, charging that the TCP "encourages pedestrians to violate NYC traffic rules and engage in dangerous behavior."
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > There's a pretty big difference between using it for its intended purpose (ie. monitoring traffic), and the alleged behavior that the department of transportation was opposed to. What's the point of having it public then? The department of transportation is already using that data for monitoring traffic so there's zero need for anyone else to replicate their work. The value in making that data public isn't so that Joe Average can track traffic volume over time just like the DoT is already doing. It's for transparency and so that the public can find new and innovative uses for the information our tax money is already being spent on gathering. There's no point if we're not allowed to use that data in new ways and we don't need the kind of "transparency" that only applies as long as the public isn't looking. If a specific use is actually dangerous then that can be dealt with on a case by case basis, and it's arguable that they were right to send a cease and desist letter to this website, but making the data itself unavailable over it would be an overreaction
kayo_20211030 2y ago
> "this is why we can't have nice things" Of course, it'll be used, but that's just a bad, bad argument at any level.
- try_the_bass 2y ago
  It really isn't, though? The Tragedy of the Commons is a real thing that affects real resources every day?
  - kayo_20211030 2y ago
    I think we're in agreement. The "that's why we can't have nice things" argument happens at the end when traffic cams' public access is taken away because some clever soul found a novel use for the publicly available information (i.e. taking selfies), and the authorities were put out by it. So, public information gets locked down on spurious grounds, and the same clever soul is wrongly blamed for it. That's not fair, but someone will say ".. and that's why we can't have nice things", and others will say "yeah. that guy ruined it for everyone". It's a bad argument as it ends up putting the blame on the wrong party.
    - try_the_bass 2y ago
      But in these cases, it is the "clever soul" who's to blame, especially if they cannot be legally restricted from being "clever". Like I said in another part of this thread: we should not be confounding "freely available" with "free to use without limitation". The various forms of open source licensing are testament to this concept: some things are indeed freely offered; others stipulate that you can't use them to make money without also offering your source code freely, etc. In both cases, the code is offered freely, but in the latter case, you're not legally allowed to use it without limitation. Public information is often taken down because it can't be limited in such ways, and it relies on an honor system of sorts. Once people stop being honorable, there is no other choice but to take the resource away. The fault there absolutely rests with the individuals that have violated the implicit honor system.
alufers 2y ago
A bit tangential, but in Poland we also had such traffic cameras with public access (it wasn't a live feed, but a snapshot updated every minute or so). It was provided by a company which won a lot of tenders for IT infrastructure around roads (https://www.traxelektronik.pl/pogoda/kamery/ https://www.traxelektronik.pl/pogoda/kamery/). What is interesting to me is that the public access to the cameras has been blocked a few months after the war in Ukraine started. For a few months I could watch the large convoys of equipment going towards Ukraine, and my personal theory is that so did the MoD of Russia. I haven't seen any reports about that, just my personal observation.
- avh02 2y ago
  Would have been a good opportunity to inject misinformation after they noticed (assuming it's what happened)... Convoy passing by? Quick, splice in alternative footage that has equivalent traffic/weather conditions. (Or an infinite convoy to scare them) Or just block it i guess.
zulban 2y ago
If you cannot harmlessly use it publicly then it never was a "nice thing we had".

by dave78 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

euniceee3 2y ago

That is what happened to the local feed for the city I live in. Their mapping data was trash. I went through fixed the GPS, found the typical focalized center of frame, built a basic frontend, and then they shut it all down. I found the dude that ran it and emailed back and forth with him for a few years. They made excuses about how it is an IT issue.

7speter 2y ago
> They made excuses about how it is an IT issue. An ego issue

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

Why does NYC even care? This tendency to govern in a controlling way is not just weird but plain unethical. I hope this goes viral and embarrasses them.

dave78 2y ago
Agree in spirit, though again if it does go viral and they become embarrassed the most likely thing is they'd shut down public access to the cameras - which would be a lousy outcome for everyone. My county has traffic cameras available online, though it's only static images updated once a minute or so. It's not that great but I still appreciate it, especially during winter weather. Every now and then if the weather seems bad I check the cameras to see what the roads look like before I head out. It's not a big deal, but I'd be a little annoyed if they took away public access because someone was trying to make some sort of statement or game out of them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Spooky23 2y ago
NYC government is peculiar, in that its size and scope is like a US state, but it also subsumes the functions of US cities and counties. The closest comparison in the US is probably LA County. Thinking about it in terms of technology — during the pandemic the schools bought a million iPads. They also run a giant hospital system, the largest police and fire departments in the country, etc. The net result is administration of a vast, sprawling (both horizontal and vertical) bureaucracy is complex, and the cogs in the wheel of that bureaucracy are simultaneously in your face and detached from reality. So you have a group of attorneys who see a threat in people posing in front of a camera.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  You first paragraph raises some interesting points. It makes wonder if NYC police and fire is larger than that of some smaller countries in Europe, like Belgium or Netherlands. My guess: Yes!
  - ericbarrett 2y ago
    Indeed, the NYPD has 33,000 officers and Belgium's armed forces have 24,000 serving plus 6000 reserve. They also have very similar budgets: $6b vs. €7b.
noprocrasted 2y ago
This is an opportunity for bullshitters (in a "bullshit jobs" sense) to be seen as "doing something" and get pats on the back without significant effort - at least less effort than doing other, actually valuable things.

highcountess 2y ago

The response to that should be filing lawsuits to force the government to make public resources like that publicly accessible.

lostlogin 2y ago
A you request footage of yourself at a specified place and time? Having a semi automated way of doing that would be far more irritating for them.

autoexec 2y ago

What's the point of making a thing avilable to the public online if you're only going to pull it offline as soon as regular people start using it? I'm sure there are corporations and data brokers quietly collecting info on us using every scrap of publicly avilable data including traffic cams, but the moment regular folks start getting in on the fun and they post a pic of themselves being surveilled on twitter suddenly it's time to shut everything down? If it's a problem as soon as the average American starts using something, it's probably better if those resources stop being made available period.

gruez 2y ago
>but the moment regular folks start getting in on the fun and they post a pic of themselves being surveilled on twitter suddenly it's time to shut everything down? There's a pretty big difference between using it for its intended purpose (ie. monitoring traffic), and the alleged behavior that the department of transportation was opposed to. >Office of Legal Affairs recently sent a cease-and-desist letter to Morry Kolman, the artist behind the project, charging that the TCP "encourages pedestrians to violate NYC traffic rules and engage in dangerous behavior."
- autoexec 2y ago
  > There's a pretty big difference between using it for its intended purpose (ie. monitoring traffic), and the alleged behavior that the department of transportation was opposed to. What's the point of having it public then? The department of transportation is already using that data for monitoring traffic so there's zero need for anyone else to replicate their work. The value in making that data public isn't so that Joe Average can track traffic volume over time just like the DoT is already doing. It's for transparency and so that the public can find new and innovative uses for the information our tax money is already being spent on gathering. There's no point if we're not allowed to use that data in new ways and we don't need the kind of "transparency" that only applies as long as the public isn't looking. If a specific use is actually dangerous then that can be dealt with on a case by case basis, and it's arguable that they were right to send a cease and desist letter to this website, but making the data itself unavailable over it would be an overreaction

kayo_20211030 2y ago

> "this is why we can't have nice things" Of course, it'll be used, but that's just a bad, bad argument at any level.

try_the_bass 2y ago
It really isn't, though? The Tragedy of the Commons is a real thing that affects real resources every day?
- kayo_20211030 2y ago
  I think we're in agreement. The "that's why we can't have nice things" argument happens at the end when traffic cams' public access is taken away because some clever soul found a novel use for the publicly available information (i.e. taking selfies), and the authorities were put out by it. So, public information gets locked down on spurious grounds, and the same clever soul is wrongly blamed for it. That's not fair, but someone will say ".. and that's why we can't have nice things", and others will say "yeah. that guy ruined it for everyone". It's a bad argument as it ends up putting the blame on the wrong party.
  - try_the_bass 2y ago
    But in these cases, it is the "clever soul" who's to blame, especially if they cannot be legally restricted from being "clever". Like I said in another part of this thread: we should not be confounding "freely available" with "free to use without limitation". The various forms of open source licensing are testament to this concept: some things are indeed freely offered; others stipulate that you can't use them to make money without also offering your source code freely, etc. In both cases, the code is offered freely, but in the latter case, you're not legally allowed to use it without limitation. Public information is often taken down because it can't be limited in such ways, and it relies on an honor system of sorts. Once people stop being honorable, there is no other choice but to take the resource away. The fault there absolutely rests with the individuals that have violated the implicit honor system.

alufers 2y ago

A bit tangential, but in Poland we also had such traffic cameras with public access (it wasn't a live feed, but a snapshot updated every minute or so). It was provided by a company which won a lot of tenders for IT infrastructure around roads (https://www.traxelektronik.pl/pogoda/kamery/ https://www.traxelektronik.pl/pogoda/kamery/). What is interesting to me is that the public access to the cameras has been blocked a few months after the war in Ukraine started. For a few months I could watch the large convoys of equipment going towards Ukraine, and my personal theory is that so did the MoD of Russia. I haven't seen any reports about that, just my personal observation.

avh02 2y ago
Would have been a good opportunity to inject misinformation after they noticed (assuming it's what happened)... Convoy passing by? Quick, splice in alternative footage that has equivalent traffic/weather conditions. (Or an infinite convoy to scare them) Or just block it i guess.

zulban 2y ago

If you cannot harmlessly use it publicly then it never was a "nice thing we had".