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But the riders participating are fully aware of the risks. So why not allow it?

by atonse 2y ago

mannykannot 2y ago
Agreed - and in proportion to the number of competitors, I would guess that the fatality rate is less than, say, climbing K2. Update: Summing the 'number of finishes' column in the Competitor Analysis' on the IOMTT site I get 17355 finishes (the data appears to cover competitors who have finished 6 or more races.) The above-mentioned Wikipedia list of TT fatalities page gives a total of 281 (including 16 non-rider fatalities), giving a BoE figure of 1.62%. In contrast, the Wikipedia 'List of deaths on eight-thousanders' page says that, as of August 2023, about 800 climbers have summited K2, and 96 have died trying. Annapurna has the worst statistics among these mountains: "for decades, it has the highest climber to fatality ratio of around 32%". For the TT, if you think the number of competitors rather than finishes is the correct figure to use, the TT list used above contains 1275 competitors, for a fatality rate of about 22% (though, as mentioned above, this seems to exclude competitors with fewer than 6 finishes.) https://www.iomtt.com/tt-database/competitor-analysis https://www.iomtt.com/tt-database/competitor-analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_on_eight-thousanders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_on_eight-thousa...
trgn 2y ago
because other people now need to waste their time going to collect their bodies, calling their families, dressing their corpses?
- syndicatedjelly 2y ago
  We should ban all activities that may cause human injury or death, regardless of participant consent
  - trgn 2y ago
    cute. but it's not what i said.
    - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
      Was probably equally as informative as whatever you’re trying to say
- Lanolderen 2y ago
  Waste is kind of a stretch. Every outsider involved would be getting paid. If I'm hosting a race, ensuring medical staff, etc are present it's not really a waste of their time if someone does get hurt/dies. It's literally why they are there. You could argue that their qualifications can be better used elsewhere but that applies to anything.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  These people would have died anyway. We haven't reached immortality. It is mostly a scheduling problem. Also first responders at the TT and irish road races like the flying doctors [1] are also mostly big fans of the sport and I would say you would be silly to call Isle of Man your home if you can't stand the TT or Manx GP. And you are totally free to take your vacations during those events if finding a crashed bike and a corpse on your lawn is an issue to you. https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/april/mcn-plus---dr-john-mcn-sport/ https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/april/mcn-plus---dr... https://www.carthrottle.com/news/why-flying-dr-john-hinds-was-most-incredible-man-motorsport https://www.carthrottle.com/news/why-flying-dr-john-hinds-wa... https://youtu.be/FdRM0KGGSAk?feature=shared https://youtu.be/FdRM0KGGSAk?feature=shared
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  There's no mandatory requirement for anyone to collect a body from a morgue, even if it is a first degree relative. That being said, some relatives don't have to work everyday so they're not waisting much.
thefaux 2y ago
I am sort of with Kant who believed that we have duties and responsibilities to others. There is an enormous cost imposed by deaths caused by reckless actions, which is not limited just to family and friends. The effects of these types of things fan out beyond the individual incident as well. These deaths normalize behaviors that are then mimicked by future people keeping us stuck in the cycle of wanton and unnecessary death.
- nradov 2y ago
  Every man dies, not every man really lives. I'm glad there are still some people with the courage to push the limits and damn the consequences. Modern life has become a little too safe and comfortable. Cheers to the Isle of Man TT riders, and let's hope the moralizing scolds and killjoys never get their way.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    Hopefully that was /s?
- pengaru 2y ago
  Nobody gets out alive, get over it.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    Eat shit
    - pengaru 2y ago
      live forever
jdietrich 2y ago
If you aren't familiar with the TT, it's crazier than you can imagine. It's a race on ordinary roads, large sections of which run through residential villages. Spectators are seriously injured on a fairly regular basis. Completely uninvolved bystanders are seriously injured on occasion. Local residents have come home to find the charred wreckage of a motorbike in their front room. It's incredible that races like the IoM TT and the Northwest 200 still exist, but I can't imagine anyone ever sanctioning such races if they were new. There's just so much unmanageable risk. https://youtu.be/KFJSVtsckyI https://youtu.be/KFJSVtsckyI https://youtu.be/ocHeJG5o8N0?t=421 https://youtu.be/ocHeJG5o8N0?t=421
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Presumably the motorbike owner or team or event sponsors have insurance to pay for the charred front rooms and bystander injuries? I could see spectators being at their own risk, but if the event becomes uninsurable, it will stop being held.
- atonse 2y ago
  Yeah I’m totally familiar with the TT. I was a fan of MotoGP growing up. It is absolutely bonkers to me. But can you expand a bit on “completely unrelated bystanders” because spectators also know the risks of being a spectator. It’s crazy. But is there a situation where someone that lives in IoM isn’t aware of what’s going on that week or that weekend? Not that I’m against making things safer here and there, and in particular spectator zones. But someone standing on a sidewalk to get a view of a motorcycle going 200MPH merely feet from them, knows what they’re risking, don’t they? And I agree that such a race would never get sanctioned today. Even one like Monaco in F1. It’s too tight.

But the riders participating are fully aware of the risks. So why not allow it?

by atonse 2y ago

But the riders participating are fully aware of the risks. So why not allow it?

Agreed - and in proportion to the number of competitors, I would guess that the fatality rate is less than, say, climbing K2. Update: Summing the 'number of finishes' column in the Competitor Analysis' on the IOMTT site I get 17355 finishes (the data appears to cover competitors who have finished 6 or more races.) The above-mentioned Wikipedia list of TT fatalities page gives a total of 281 (including 16 non-rider fatalities), giving a BoE figure of 1.62%. In contrast, the Wikipedia 'List of deaths on eight-thousanders' page says that, as of August 2023, about 800 climbers have summited K2, and 96 have died trying. Annapurna has the worst statistics among these mountains: "for decades, it has the highest climber to fatality ratio of around 32%". For the TT, if you think the number of competitors rather than finishes is the correct figure to use, the TT list used above contains 1275 competitors, for a fatality rate of about 22% (though, as mentioned above, this seems to exclude competitors with fewer than 6 finishes.) https://www.iomtt.com/tt-database/competitor-analysis https://www.iomtt.com/tt-database/competitor-analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_on_eight-thousanders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_on_eight-thousa...

trgn 2y ago

because other people now need to waste their time going to collect their bodies, calling their families, dressing their corpses?

syndicatedjelly 2y ago
We should ban all activities that may cause human injury or death, regardless of participant consent
- trgn 2y ago
  cute. but it's not what i said.
  - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
    Was probably equally as informative as whatever you’re trying to say
Lanolderen 2y ago
Waste is kind of a stretch. Every outsider involved would be getting paid. If I'm hosting a race, ensuring medical staff, etc are present it's not really a waste of their time if someone does get hurt/dies. It's literally why they are there. You could argue that their qualifications can be better used elsewhere but that applies to anything.
prmoustache 2y ago
These people would have died anyway. We haven't reached immortality. It is mostly a scheduling problem. Also first responders at the TT and irish road races like the flying doctors [1] are also mostly big fans of the sport and I would say you would be silly to call Isle of Man your home if you can't stand the TT or Manx GP. And you are totally free to take your vacations during those events if finding a crashed bike and a corpse on your lawn is an issue to you. https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/april/mcn-plus---dr-john-mcn-sport/ https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/april/mcn-plus---dr... https://www.carthrottle.com/news/why-flying-dr-john-hinds-was-most-incredible-man-motorsport https://www.carthrottle.com/news/why-flying-dr-john-hinds-wa... https://youtu.be/FdRM0KGGSAk?feature=shared https://youtu.be/FdRM0KGGSAk?feature=shared
ExoticPearTree 2y ago
There's no mandatory requirement for anyone to collect a body from a morgue, even if it is a first degree relative. That being said, some relatives don't have to work everyday so they're not waisting much.

thefaux 2y ago

I am sort of with Kant who believed that we have duties and responsibilities to others. There is an enormous cost imposed by deaths caused by reckless actions, which is not limited just to family and friends. The effects of these types of things fan out beyond the individual incident as well. These deaths normalize behaviors that are then mimicked by future people keeping us stuck in the cycle of wanton and unnecessary death.

nradov 2y ago
Every man dies, not every man really lives. I'm glad there are still some people with the courage to push the limits and damn the consequences. Modern life has become a little too safe and comfortable. Cheers to the Isle of Man TT riders, and let's hope the moralizing scolds and killjoys never get their way.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  Hopefully that was /s?
pengaru 2y ago
Nobody gets out alive, get over it.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Eat shit
  - pengaru 2y ago
    live forever

jdietrich 2y ago

If you aren't familiar with the TT, it's crazier than you can imagine. It's a race on ordinary roads, large sections of which run through residential villages. Spectators are seriously injured on a fairly regular basis. Completely uninvolved bystanders are seriously injured on occasion. Local residents have come home to find the charred wreckage of a motorbike in their front room. It's incredible that races like the IoM TT and the Northwest 200 still exist, but I can't imagine anyone ever sanctioning such races if they were new. There's just so much unmanageable risk. https://youtu.be/KFJSVtsckyI https://youtu.be/KFJSVtsckyI https://youtu.be/ocHeJG5o8N0?t=421 https://youtu.be/ocHeJG5o8N0?t=421

SoftTalker 2y ago
Presumably the motorbike owner or team or event sponsors have insurance to pay for the charred front rooms and bystander injuries? I could see spectators being at their own risk, but if the event becomes uninsurable, it will stop being held.
atonse 2y ago
Yeah I’m totally familiar with the TT. I was a fan of MotoGP growing up. It is absolutely bonkers to me. But can you expand a bit on “completely unrelated bystanders” because spectators also know the risks of being a spectator. It’s crazy. But is there a situation where someone that lives in IoM isn’t aware of what’s going on that week or that weekend? Not that I’m against making things safer here and there, and in particular spectator zones. But someone standing on a sidewalk to get a view of a motorcycle going 200MPH merely feet from them, knows what they’re risking, don’t they? And I agree that such a race would never get sanctioned today. Even one like Monaco in F1. It’s too tight.