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The model isn't trained on journalism only, you can't even isolate its training like that. It's trained on human writing in general and across specialties, and

The model isn't trained on journalism only, you can't even isolate its training like that. It's trained on human writing in general and across specialties, and it's designed to compete with humans on what humans do with text, of which journalism is merely a tiny special case. I think the only principle positions to be had here is to either ignore IP rights for LLM training, or give up entirely, because a model designed to be general like human will need to be trained like a human, i.e. immersed in the same reality as we are, same culture, most of which is shackled by IP claims - and then, obviously, by definition, as it gets better it gets more competitive with humans on everything humans do. You can produce a complaint that "copyrighted X was used in training a model that now can compete with humans on producing X" for arbitrary value of X. You can even produce a complaint about "copyrighted X used in training model that now outcompetes us in producing Y", for arbitrary X and Y that are not even related together, and it will still be true. Such is a nature of a general-purpose ML model.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
This seems to be putting the cart before the horse. IP rights, or even IP itself as a concept, isn’t fundamental to existence nor the default state of nature. They are contigent concepts, contigent on many factors. e.g. It has to be actively, continuously, maintained as time advances. There could be disagreements on how often, such as per annum, per case, per WIPO meeting, etc… But if no such activity occurs over a very long time, say a century, then any claims to any IP will likely, by default, be extinguished. So nobody needs to do anything for it all to become irrelevant. That will automatically occur given enough time…
- timschmidt 2y ago
  > IP rights, or even IP itself as a concept, isn’t fundamental to existence nor the default state of nature. This is correct. Copyright wasn't a thing until after the invention of the printing press.
motohagiography 2y ago
the analogy in the anti-fair-use argument is that if I am the WSJ, and you are a reader and investor who reads my newspaper, and then you go on to make a billion dollars in profitable trades, somehow I as the publisher am entitled to some equity or compensation for your use of my journalism. That argument is equally absurd as one where you write a program that does the same thing. Model training is not only fair use, but publishers should be grateful someone has done something of value for humanity with their collected drivelings.
- bsenftner 2y ago
  This is the checkmate. The moment anything is published, it is fair game, it is part of the human consciousness and available for incorporation in anything that it sits as a component. Otherwise, what is the fucking point of publishing, mere revenue? Are we all not collectively competing and contributing? Furthermore, is not anything copied from anything published arguably not satire? Protected speech satire?

MichaelZuo 2y ago

This seems to be putting the cart before the horse. IP rights, or even IP itself as a concept, isn’t fundamental to existence nor the default state of nature. They are contigent concepts, contigent on many factors. e.g. It has to be actively, continuously, maintained as time advances. There could be disagreements on how often, such as per annum, per case, per WIPO meeting, etc… But if no such activity occurs over a very long time, say a century, then any claims to any IP will likely, by default, be extinguished. So nobody needs to do anything for it all to become irrelevant. That will automatically occur given enough time…

timschmidt 2y ago
> IP rights, or even IP itself as a concept, isn’t fundamental to existence nor the default state of nature. This is correct. Copyright wasn't a thing until after the invention of the printing press.

motohagiography 2y ago

the analogy in the anti-fair-use argument is that if I am the WSJ, and you are a reader and investor who reads my newspaper, and then you go on to make a billion dollars in profitable trades, somehow I as the publisher am entitled to some equity or compensation for your use of my journalism. That argument is equally absurd as one where you write a program that does the same thing. Model training is not only fair use, but publishers should be grateful someone has done something of value for humanity with their collected drivelings.

bsenftner 2y ago
This is the checkmate. The moment anything is published, it is fair game, it is part of the human consciousness and available for incorporation in anything that it sits as a component. Otherwise, what is the fucking point of publishing, mere revenue? Are we all not collectively competing and contributing? Furthermore, is not anything copied from anything published arguably not satire? Protected speech satire?