3 ms·

Hospitals gave patients meds during childbirth, then reported them for drug use

62 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

gnabgib 2y ago
Inexplicably no discussion, but popular yesterday (44 points) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42404691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42404691
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  I submitted it yesterday, saw the current thread on the front page. Almost celebrated my first post making it there, but alas, it wasn’t mine.
  - joe_the_user 2y ago
    And then someone flagged it apparently as a dupe. smh.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    This happens a lot and for some reason it always stings.
hilbert42 2y ago
[flagged]
- ternnoburn 2y ago
  There's no reason to believe this didn't occur. US medical systems and US drug systems absolutely are the sorts of systems that would fail in this way.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    "…sorts of systems that would fail in this way." Hum. Unfortunately, most don't seem to agree with you. I think I've received more downvotes to this post than any previous one. Shame they don't say why.
    - ternnoburn 2y ago
      You suggested it was a joke and unlikely, and then said you'd need more evidence. This suggests you are skeptical that the US healthcare system works this way and that you are rejecting the claims of the article. Anyone with experience with US healthcare would find this story immediately plausible, and the burden of proof is low. It's how Americans would expect the system to operate. Even if they hope it didn't.
      - hilbert42 2y ago
        Are people in the US really that literal? It's no wonder social media is in such one hell of a mess. Doesn't anyone realize that the point I was making is that this story is just so bad and terrible that it's almost unbelievable—even by US health standards? In fact it's so bad that it would seem infeasible even in the worst of third world countries. I say that as someone who has lived and worked in the US for periods and who has relatives living there. Even by my understanding what happened in this story it is so outrageous that people ought to be rioting in the streets over it. What much of the world finds completely unfathomable about the US is why its citizens—citizens of a supposed first-world country—actually tolerate a health care system that's actually worse than in many third-world ones. Edit: on further thoughts given that so many (presumably US) posters took umbrage at my comment tells me the situation with the US health care system is even worse that I thought. What beats is why so many couldn't see what I was driving at.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        ternnoburn 2y ago
        You here to learn why people misunderstood you? Or you here to fight with righteous anger about how it's other people's fault they misunderstood you? Because you say the former but are acting like the latter. I agree the healthcare system in the US is unfathomable. We're on the same page there. Maybe don't be a dick about it and we can have a productive chat?
christophilus 2y ago
Is it normal to give morphine to mothers during childbirth? That seems crazy to me.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  Most of the time, yes: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/epidural-anesthesia https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/epidural-anesthesia
- ternnoburn 2y ago
  Opioids are often given during and after childbirth. Childbirth is incredible, but also hugely painful for some people. And the different types of labor pain can be treated by different techniques or medications. Why would it be crazy?
  - agonmon 2y ago
    Because it shows up in the baby's meconium... That doesn't even get into the second order effects such as mothers then having trouble lactating/nursing. And beyond that, we should probably question why, statistically, the mothers that have the most children don't use painkillers during childbirth.
    - iudqnolq 2y ago
      Why should we question that? The most obvious answer would be that women who have a hard time giving birth are more likely to get painkillers and less likely to want a second child.
      - agonmon 2y ago
        I suppose this might seem obvious if you have not talked to many mothers.
    - addicted 2y ago
      > the mothers that have the most children don't use painkillers during childbirth Maybe because those who have painful births are unlikely to want to go through it again? That seems The obvious guess. It could definitely be wrong but unless research shows otherwise there doesn’t appear to be an a priori reason to avoid painkillers barring further research.
ortusdux 2y ago
It's recommended to avoid poppy seeds during the last few months of pregnancy to avoid false positives.
joe_the_user 2y ago
So they tested the kid's bowel movements for drugs and reported the parent for drugs they themselves gave. On the surface, it seems like a "right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing" but such things always going to happen when a system is used for both care and enforcement. And as the article mentions, the outlawing of abortion in some states has accelerated these problems.
aftbit 2y ago
Dum dum dum dumb. Classic "not my problem" case in health care. Clinician 1 gives a typical medication to patient, then their shift ends and they go home. Hours or days later, clinician 2 administers a drug test as part of standard process, then their shift ends and they go home. Clinician 3 then reviews this positive test result and reports it to authorities as part of a mandatory reporting program. Nobody acts as a patient advocate and reviews the full case file. Everyone just does their one transactional piece and forgets the entire history ten seconds later in favor of doing another transactional thing for another patient.
Aloisius 2y ago
It sounds like the justice system is what's broken.
- morkalork 2y ago
  It shouldn't even be making it to the justice system in the first place
SuperNinKenDo 2y ago
A case study in the banality of evil sadly. Also a perfect example of why care and enforcemrnt should never be mixed, both for its immediate effects and the lasting distrust it will eventually cause.
stuaxo 2y ago
So dystopian.
underseacables 2y ago
It feels like today, mothers face increasing danger going into hospitals. The medical professionals have so much power and control over you when you're there, and one mistake can kill you or ruin your life. There really needs to be greater patient protections.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
If you sued for mental damage the state for such a thing, would you be able to win? It says a child was taken from the mum for 5 months, that's an impossible damage, literally to get back to something similar you need another child + 9 months + all the costs associated to having 2 children (and career progression loss).
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  I feel like most such suits would crash on the shores of immunity doctrines and balancing tests. It's absolutely life-altering and probably lifelong - I don't see any way that such a child wouldn't develop attachment/trust disorders. But any judges who assign responsibility to transparently will be denounced as 'judicial activists'.
OutOfHere 2y ago
The state government has too much power to define what a mother can or can't do. It doesn't deserve such power. Using it correctly or not is a whole other consideration.

62 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

Inexplicably no discussion, but popular yesterday (44 points) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42404691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42404691

darth_avocado 2y ago
I submitted it yesterday, saw the current thread on the front page. Almost celebrated my first post making it there, but alas, it wasn’t mine.
- joe_the_user 2y ago
  And then someone flagged it apparently as a dupe. smh.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  This happens a lot and for some reason it always stings.

hilbert42 2y ago

[flagged]

ternnoburn 2y ago
There's no reason to believe this didn't occur. US medical systems and US drug systems absolutely are the sorts of systems that would fail in this way.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "…sorts of systems that would fail in this way." Hum. Unfortunately, most don't seem to agree with you. I think I've received more downvotes to this post than any previous one. Shame they don't say why.
  - ternnoburn 2y ago
    You suggested it was a joke and unlikely, and then said you'd need more evidence. This suggests you are skeptical that the US healthcare system works this way and that you are rejecting the claims of the article. Anyone with experience with US healthcare would find this story immediately plausible, and the burden of proof is low. It's how Americans would expect the system to operate. Even if they hope it didn't.
    - hilbert42 2y ago
      Are people in the US really that literal? It's no wonder social media is in such one hell of a mess. Doesn't anyone realize that the point I was making is that this story is just so bad and terrible that it's almost unbelievable—even by US health standards? In fact it's so bad that it would seem infeasible even in the worst of third world countries. I say that as someone who has lived and worked in the US for periods and who has relatives living there. Even by my understanding what happened in this story it is so outrageous that people ought to be rioting in the streets over it. What much of the world finds completely unfathomable about the US is why its citizens—citizens of a supposed first-world country—actually tolerate a health care system that's actually worse than in many third-world ones. Edit: on further thoughts given that so many (presumably US) posters took umbrage at my comment tells me the situation with the US health care system is even worse that I thought. What beats is why so many couldn't see what I was driving at.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - ternnoburn 2y ago
        You here to learn why people misunderstood you? Or you here to fight with righteous anger about how it's other people's fault they misunderstood you? Because you say the former but are acting like the latter. I agree the healthcare system in the US is unfathomable. We're on the same page there. Maybe don't be a dick about it and we can have a productive chat?

christophilus 2y ago

Is it normal to give morphine to mothers during childbirth? That seems crazy to me.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
Most of the time, yes: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/epidural-anesthesia https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/epidural-anesthesia
ternnoburn 2y ago
Opioids are often given during and after childbirth. Childbirth is incredible, but also hugely painful for some people. And the different types of labor pain can be treated by different techniques or medications. Why would it be crazy?
- agonmon 2y ago
  Because it shows up in the baby's meconium... That doesn't even get into the second order effects such as mothers then having trouble lactating/nursing. And beyond that, we should probably question why, statistically, the mothers that have the most children don't use painkillers during childbirth.
  - iudqnolq 2y ago
    Why should we question that? The most obvious answer would be that women who have a hard time giving birth are more likely to get painkillers and less likely to want a second child.
    - agonmon 2y ago
      I suppose this might seem obvious if you have not talked to many mothers.
  - addicted 2y ago
    > the mothers that have the most children don't use painkillers during childbirth Maybe because those who have painful births are unlikely to want to go through it again? That seems The obvious guess. It could definitely be wrong but unless research shows otherwise there doesn’t appear to be an a priori reason to avoid painkillers barring further research.

ortusdux 2y ago

It's recommended to avoid poppy seeds during the last few months of pregnancy to avoid false positives.

joe_the_user 2y ago

So they tested the kid's bowel movements for drugs and reported the parent for drugs they themselves gave. On the surface, it seems like a "right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing" but such things always going to happen when a system is used for both care and enforcement. And as the article mentions, the outlawing of abortion in some states has accelerated these problems.

aftbit 2y ago

Dum dum dum dumb. Classic "not my problem" case in health care. Clinician 1 gives a typical medication to patient, then their shift ends and they go home. Hours or days later, clinician 2 administers a drug test as part of standard process, then their shift ends and they go home. Clinician 3 then reviews this positive test result and reports it to authorities as part of a mandatory reporting program. Nobody acts as a patient advocate and reviews the full case file. Everyone just does their one transactional piece and forgets the entire history ten seconds later in favor of doing another transactional thing for another patient.

Aloisius 2y ago

It sounds like the justice system is what's broken.

morkalork 2y ago
It shouldn't even be making it to the justice system in the first place

SuperNinKenDo 2y ago

A case study in the banality of evil sadly. Also a perfect example of why care and enforcemrnt should never be mixed, both for its immediate effects and the lasting distrust it will eventually cause.

stuaxo 2y ago

So dystopian.

underseacables 2y ago

It feels like today, mothers face increasing danger going into hospitals. The medical professionals have so much power and control over you when you're there, and one mistake can kill you or ruin your life. There really needs to be greater patient protections.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago

If you sued for mental damage the state for such a thing, would you be able to win? It says a child was taken from the mum for 5 months, that's an impossible damage, literally to get back to something similar you need another child + 9 months + all the costs associated to having 2 children (and career progression loss).

anigbrowl 2y ago
I feel like most such suits would crash on the shores of immunity doctrines and balancing tests. It's absolutely life-altering and probably lifelong - I don't see any way that such a child wouldn't develop attachment/trust disorders. But any judges who assign responsibility to transparently will be denounced as 'judicial activists'.

OutOfHere 2y ago

The state government has too much power to define what a mother can or can't do. It doesn't deserve such power. Using it correctly or not is a whole other consideration.