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"All eligible products" is a key, the new iPad with its glued in battery is not among them. The "more efficient and longer lasting" case materials he brags abo

"All eligible products" is a key, the new iPad with its glued in battery is not among them. The "more efficient and longer lasting" case materials he brags about are irrelevant in their disposable products made of low quality components that are not user serviceable or upgradable. It's like bragging you made your automobile frame out of solid titanium with a carbon fiber shell, but ignoring the fact that you built the engine without any way to change the oil, so you're going to be throwing it out or sending it in for major costly service after a short time. Such planned obsolescent designs are certainly not environmentally sound, and claims of the longevity and strength of the frame materials, and even of certifications, are just PR to distract and hypnotize the marketplace into believing the opposite of the reality of the situation.

jasomill 14y ago
Only if oil generally only needed to be replaced once or twice over the lifespan of a car, an oil change was traditionally so easy and convenient that most customers did it themselves, and the "expensive repair", in absolute terms, was only slightly more expensive than the retail price of oil change parts and supplies for otherwise comparable cars. So no, not really.
leberwurstsaft 14y ago
Tablets are not rated by EPEAT.
- wtallis 14y ago
  I think that's the number one thing people have been overlooking in this scandal: EPEAT is behind the times by not even offering relevant standards for Apple's most important product segments.
  - barista 14y ago
    And if it offered relevant standards then it's quite likely that Apple won't qualify given how they are assembled.
    - wtallis 14y ago
      If EPEAT offered relevant standards for tablets and phones, they'd have to face up to the realities of the modern manufacturing methods necessary to make powerful devices compact. And if not, it would be harder to single out Apple, because there would be plenty of other tablets and phones not qualifying.
    - bdcravens 14y ago
      Would any tablet manufacturer?
mkaltenecker 14y ago
I’m not sure, I think laptops have become longer lasting, more appliance like. I think that’s a very positive thing for the majority of people. The only big issue I see is the battery which will definitely break. Those things have a limited lifetime (shorter than, say, five years you at least would want your laptop to make it) and there is nothing you can change about that.
pooriaazimi 14y ago
Not being user-servicable does not mean it's disposable. You can take it to Apple Stores and they'll fix it for you (and they certainly don't tuck the entire thing in the trash, they probably have some complex machines (that not everyone has) that are able to de-glue screen/battery and case). It's a compromise most regular customers will probably accept. And I don't get ""disposable products made of low quality components"" at all. Low quality?!
- kalleboo 14y ago
  But you can't upgrade them. I just added 4 GB of RAM and an SSD to my mom's 4-year-old MBP, ensuring it'll last another 3-4 years. 2 GB RAM and a 5400rpm drive just wasn't cutting it anymore. Several of my friends extended the lives of their MacBooks by replacing the DVD with a secondary SSD. Apple's new generation design of Macs have soldered-in RAM and a proprietary disk. Will we be able to upgrade them in 4 years? edit: Imagine if you could upgrade the RAM in an iPad. I could still have used my original iPad now instead of it being junk.
  - rafadc 14y ago
    Junk!!?? I have a first generation iPad and it does more things than the first day it was purchased. Not being updated will mean that it will do the same things it does now but no more. That's far from junk.
    - kalleboo 14y ago
      Every iOS update slows it down more and more and makes apps crash more as they run out of RAM and developers have only tested it with the latest device.
      - runako 14y ago
        You pointedly didn't respond to the post: >> I have a first generation iPad and it does more things than the first day it was purchased. That's certainly true of mine, crashing 3rd-party apps notwithstanding.
lloeki 14y ago
> that are not user serviceable or upgradable. The Retina MacBook Pro is rated gold EPEAT, despite criticism regarding the glue used. I seem to remember some components were glued in early versions of some iPhones/iPads, but were later silently updated to have no glue.
gnaffle 14y ago
Actually, it's not glued with epoxy resin or something like that. The iFixit teardown shows them removing it with a spudger. Hardly a difficult job for recyclers. Online parts shops are already selling replacement batteries and can even replace it for you if you don't want to send it to Apple. That's the reality of the situation, if you care to do some research. I've replaced the battery on an iPhone 3GS (also glued in) and it's not a big deal.
- mathieuh 14y ago
  IIRC the problem is that there has to be absolutely no glue present for them to be able to recycle it. Even if they can just pry the batteries out, they need to be free of glue entirely.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    Which seems very weird, given how many different layers and materials already go into a lithium battery. Why is a small dab of glue so problematic? It's almost as if the recyclers are too lazy to keep their processes up to date. Nah, couldn't be.
    - pmarin 14y ago
      Perhaps the glue can generates toxic derivatives in the recycling process that can nullify the benefits of the process by itself.
  - mkaltenecker 14y ago
    I would be interested in your source for that. Batteries are already made of very many different materials, it’s not as though glue is some sort of special material. (The label of, say, AAA batteries is glued to the metal container. The label of the Li-Ion battery of my Nokia phone is also glued to the plastic container. Maybe Apple uses a bit more glue – but glue shouldn’t be something completely new in battery recycling.)
  - gnaffle 14y ago
    I'd like a reference on that because it seems completely implausible, and would make recycling almost anything impossible because glue is used everywhere, on tape bits to hold cables in place etc. And if the batteries has to be glue free, then practically all laptop and cell phone batteries can't be recycled because the plastic battery case is glued together.
ary 14y ago
The user serviceability argument is tired. The readers of HN are disproportionally more willing and eager to service their own tech than the overall population. The only group this really isn't good for is the third-party repair companies. Apple has made it clear they want a tight relationship with the customer at every step of the product experience. This is (from Apple's point of view) just strengthening that relationship.
- rogerchucker 14y ago
  Tight relationship at every step of the product experience => almost forcing the customer for paying a fucking premium for every little service you need for a device you have already paid for and own. Too bad educated people on HN still justify that kind of BS.
  - ary 14y ago
    Should the price, quality of the product, quality of the service, or simply the way a company does business not jive with your principles... don't do business with that company.
    - rogerchucker 14y ago
      We are criticizing the way the company does business. Ending the conversation with "Don't do business with the company" is a lousy cop-out.
      - jkubicek 14y ago
        No. You are criticizing a company's products under the assumption that everyone has the same needs as you. Weight, form factor, battery life and reliability are all more important to me than serviceability. I'm not alone in feeling this way. If you value the ability to service a product more than the qualities I mentioned, you should choose to buy from a company other than Apple. > We are criticizing the way the company does business. I love the way Apple does business. They focuses on creating products that almost perfectly fit my needs.
raganesh 14y ago
"All eligible products" - in terms of product categories that EPEAT covers. EPEAT registry does not yet include certifications for smartphones or tablets.
Tloewald 14y ago
I'm sure there were plenty of people who bemoaned integrated circuits being less repairable than circuit boards, and then ASICS for being less repairable than single purpose DIPs. We really need to build everything out of wood, I guess.
batista 14y ago
>"All eligible products" is a key, the new iPad with its glued in battery is not among them. True, but OTOH, then can't go back in time and change it's design now that they decided to go back with EPEAT, can they? >It's like bragging you made your automobile frame out of solid titanium with a carbon fiber shell, but ignoring the fact that you built the engine without any way to change the oil, so you're going to be throwing it out or sending it in for major costly service after a short time Yes, if we ignore the fact that for the analogy to work: 1) Most people would not ever have the oil in their cars changed. 2) The car runs fine without an oil change for as many --or even more-- years as others cars that do permit oil change. Buying a MBP Retina now, with Apple warranty repairs and/or Apple Care, you get as many years as you would use any Dell or IBM or other laptop. Maybe some people would like to update RAM and HD and use them for 1-2 more years, but how many are those people? Judging from the giant success of Apple retail stores and the relative obscurity of iFixit and such sites/services, not that many.

jasomill 14y ago

Only if oil generally only needed to be replaced once or twice over the lifespan of a car, an oil change was traditionally so easy and convenient that most customers did it themselves, and the "expensive repair", in absolute terms, was only slightly more expensive than the retail price of oil change parts and supplies for otherwise comparable cars. So no, not really.

leberwurstsaft 14y ago

Tablets are not rated by EPEAT.

wtallis 14y ago
I think that's the number one thing people have been overlooking in this scandal: EPEAT is behind the times by not even offering relevant standards for Apple's most important product segments.
- barista 14y ago
  And if it offered relevant standards then it's quite likely that Apple won't qualify given how they are assembled.
  - wtallis 14y ago
    If EPEAT offered relevant standards for tablets and phones, they'd have to face up to the realities of the modern manufacturing methods necessary to make powerful devices compact. And if not, it would be harder to single out Apple, because there would be plenty of other tablets and phones not qualifying.
  - bdcravens 14y ago
    Would any tablet manufacturer?

mkaltenecker 14y ago

I’m not sure, I think laptops have become longer lasting, more appliance like. I think that’s a very positive thing for the majority of people. The only big issue I see is the battery which will definitely break. Those things have a limited lifetime (shorter than, say, five years you at least would want your laptop to make it) and there is nothing you can change about that.

pooriaazimi 14y ago

Not being user-servicable does not mean it's disposable. You can take it to Apple Stores and they'll fix it for you (and they certainly don't tuck the entire thing in the trash, they probably have some complex machines (that not everyone has) that are able to de-glue screen/battery and case). It's a compromise most regular customers will probably accept. And I don't get ""disposable products made of low quality components"" at all. Low quality?!

kalleboo 14y ago
But you can't upgrade them. I just added 4 GB of RAM and an SSD to my mom's 4-year-old MBP, ensuring it'll last another 3-4 years. 2 GB RAM and a 5400rpm drive just wasn't cutting it anymore. Several of my friends extended the lives of their MacBooks by replacing the DVD with a secondary SSD. Apple's new generation design of Macs have soldered-in RAM and a proprietary disk. Will we be able to upgrade them in 4 years? edit: Imagine if you could upgrade the RAM in an iPad. I could still have used my original iPad now instead of it being junk.
- rafadc 14y ago
  Junk!!?? I have a first generation iPad and it does more things than the first day it was purchased. Not being updated will mean that it will do the same things it does now but no more. That's far from junk.
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    Every iOS update slows it down more and more and makes apps crash more as they run out of RAM and developers have only tested it with the latest device.
    - runako 14y ago
      You pointedly didn't respond to the post: >> I have a first generation iPad and it does more things than the first day it was purchased. That's certainly true of mine, crashing 3rd-party apps notwithstanding.

lloeki 14y ago

> that are not user serviceable or upgradable. The Retina MacBook Pro is rated gold EPEAT, despite criticism regarding the glue used. I seem to remember some components were glued in early versions of some iPhones/iPads, but were later silently updated to have no glue.

gnaffle 14y ago

Actually, it's not glued with epoxy resin or something like that. The iFixit teardown shows them removing it with a spudger. Hardly a difficult job for recyclers. Online parts shops are already selling replacement batteries and can even replace it for you if you don't want to send it to Apple. That's the reality of the situation, if you care to do some research. I've replaced the battery on an iPhone 3GS (also glued in) and it's not a big deal.

mathieuh 14y ago
IIRC the problem is that there has to be absolutely no glue present for them to be able to recycle it. Even if they can just pry the batteries out, they need to be free of glue entirely.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Which seems very weird, given how many different layers and materials already go into a lithium battery. Why is a small dab of glue so problematic? It's almost as if the recyclers are too lazy to keep their processes up to date. Nah, couldn't be.
  - pmarin 14y ago
    Perhaps the glue can generates toxic derivatives in the recycling process that can nullify the benefits of the process by itself.
- mkaltenecker 14y ago
  I would be interested in your source for that. Batteries are already made of very many different materials, it’s not as though glue is some sort of special material. (The label of, say, AAA batteries is glued to the metal container. The label of the Li-Ion battery of my Nokia phone is also glued to the plastic container. Maybe Apple uses a bit more glue – but glue shouldn’t be something completely new in battery recycling.)
- gnaffle 14y ago
  I'd like a reference on that because it seems completely implausible, and would make recycling almost anything impossible because glue is used everywhere, on tape bits to hold cables in place etc. And if the batteries has to be glue free, then practically all laptop and cell phone batteries can't be recycled because the plastic battery case is glued together.

ary 14y ago

The user serviceability argument is tired. The readers of HN are disproportionally more willing and eager to service their own tech than the overall population. The only group this really isn't good for is the third-party repair companies. Apple has made it clear they want a tight relationship with the customer at every step of the product experience. This is (from Apple's point of view) just strengthening that relationship.

rogerchucker 14y ago
Tight relationship at every step of the product experience => almost forcing the customer for paying a fucking premium for every little service you need for a device you have already paid for and own. Too bad educated people on HN still justify that kind of BS.
- ary 14y ago
  Should the price, quality of the product, quality of the service, or simply the way a company does business not jive with your principles... don't do business with that company.
  - rogerchucker 14y ago
    We are criticizing the way the company does business. Ending the conversation with "Don't do business with the company" is a lousy cop-out.
    - jkubicek 14y ago
      No. You are criticizing a company's products under the assumption that everyone has the same needs as you. Weight, form factor, battery life and reliability are all more important to me than serviceability. I'm not alone in feeling this way. If you value the ability to service a product more than the qualities I mentioned, you should choose to buy from a company other than Apple. > We are criticizing the way the company does business. I love the way Apple does business. They focuses on creating products that almost perfectly fit my needs.

raganesh 14y ago

"All eligible products" - in terms of product categories that EPEAT covers. EPEAT registry does not yet include certifications for smartphones or tablets.

Tloewald 14y ago

I'm sure there were plenty of people who bemoaned integrated circuits being less repairable than circuit boards, and then ASICS for being less repairable than single purpose DIPs. We really need to build everything out of wood, I guess.

batista 14y ago

>"All eligible products" is a key, the new iPad with its glued in battery is not among them. True, but OTOH, then can't go back in time and change it's design now that they decided to go back with EPEAT, can they? >It's like bragging you made your automobile frame out of solid titanium with a carbon fiber shell, but ignoring the fact that you built the engine without any way to change the oil, so you're going to be throwing it out or sending it in for major costly service after a short time Yes, if we ignore the fact that for the analogy to work: 1) Most people would not ever have the oil in their cars changed. 2) The car runs fine without an oil change for as many --or even more-- years as others cars that do permit oil change. Buying a MBP Retina now, with Apple warranty repairs and/or Apple Care, you get as many years as you would use any Dell or IBM or other laptop. Maybe some people would like to update RAM and HD and use them for 1-2 more years, but how many are those people? Judging from the giant success of Apple retail stores and the relative obscurity of iFixit and such sites/services, not that many.