5 ms·

How big data created the modern dairy cow

48 points by surprisetalk 2y ago

yeknoda 2y ago
There is no way the 6x yield increase per cow did not negatively affect the taste, nutrition, and quality of the milk. Indeed, most of the "milk" you buy in large industrial countries barely deserves the term - it's got no taste or subtle flavor. It's even worse regarding derived butters and cheeses. Yield is a great and easy thing to optimize becuase it's easy to measure. And if you increase yield at the expense of taste at suffiently slow rate, the change is impercetible to the customer. Happens slowly over decades so that a nice glass of milk is now like drinking dirty wash water. And a nice fat steak becomes ground up crickets and synthetics. Moral of the story. Get your own low efficiency cows.
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  I've had milk from a cow not bred for increased yield (Hereford). It was unremarkable.
  - fellowniusmonk 2y ago
    Yeah, I know it's a bit hyperbolic but high end milk and eggs seem like the Monster HDMI Cable of food goods. Some cow breeds have a high milk fat content and if you drink that un-homegenized you can tell, but once the milk fat is normalized I can't tell a difference. I can tell a much bigger difference between vat and HT pasteurization. Same with eggs, sure high omega three eggs have a yolk that is more orange but unless your doing a back to back comparison on a a very runny soft boil yolk you really can't tell a difference in flavor. If the egg is an ingredient the difference becomes completely undetectable. I think these types of "steps" removed products like eggs and milk have a much narrower band of quality than people think. These biologically manufactured products just don't seem to be as directly effected by inputs as the organisms themselves.
    - KennyBlanken 2y ago
      I buy "high end" eggs not because they're better for me, but because there were fewer or less toxic pesticides put into the environment to produce feed for it, and there's less chance the chicken spent its entire life in a cage so small it can barely move (or on the floor of a barn so packed that, again, it can barely move.) That's the straw-man people who attack organic food buyers with. "You silly libtard, buying organics because you think it's better for you!" Nope. It's only partially about my health. In the case of a lot of organic produce, it's more about my not wanting to support industry growers whose field workers are exposed to incredible levels of pesticides. There are exceptions. Canadian grain for example, which farmers drench in pesticides using them as a drying agent to reduce spoilage rates. They take advantage of reduced regulations around pesticide residue that was pushed through by lobbyists hired by Canadian grain producers. So, I will not buy any grain based products that aren't organic. I also won't buy non-organic spices or teas. Turns out that a lot of non-organic spices - like cinnamon - have very high levels of lead, but the organic versions have much less, or none: https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/high-lead-levels-in-cinnamon-powders-and-spice-mixtures-a4542246475/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/hig... What is particularly scary: a producer who sells in bulk targeting the restaurant industry (Badia) was one of the higher levels tested. Anything made with central/south american fruit puree? Organic only. Why? Producers used to spike the weight of their shipments with lead in the bottom of the containers. The lead would then go through the processing machinery. Result? Huge numbers of latino kids getting extreme lead poisoning. I won't buy any central/south american produced candy period, because manufacturers like to print the labels with lead-containing inks among other problems, and they repeatedly test high for lead, have for decades, because those governments don't care or are being bribed: https://www.nmhealth.org/publication/view/help/2154/ https://www.nmhealth.org/publication/view/help/2154/
      - maxerickson 2y ago
        Organic farming uses larger amounts of less effective poisons. Modern poisons are highly targeted and require smaller amounts. Typically they target disruption of metabolic pathways that are specific to plants.
      - 2y ago
- why_only_15 2y ago
  those cows probably still exist right? you can still get milk from them. Do they taste better?
  - gavindean90 2y ago
    Yes, but because of the way that the milk industry is shaped in the US it’s exceedingly hard to get and many people are afraid of it.
    - gr3ml1n 2y ago
      You're conflating some sort of heritage cow breed with raw milk. It's being intentionally misleading.
      - gavindean90 2y ago
        I was because I can’t imagine somehow finding a heritage cow breed pasteurization group here in the US.
    - why_only_15 2y ago
      What is this typically called? Are you referring to raw milk? I think this is a different thing.
      - Retric 2y ago
        Raw milk isn’t inherently more flavorful than pasteurized. It’s by necessity consumed sooner which enhances the flavor profile vs milk that’s spent weeks going through the typical logistics chain before you buy it. But, the safety concerns are significant and you could also get pasteurized milk that isn’t particularly old.
        rmosolgo 2y ago
        I've been drinking raw milk almost exclusively for about 5 years (and milking my own cows for the last 1.5 years). Whenever I get store-bought milk, I'm hit by the "cooked" flavor of it. I assume it's the pasteurization that makes the difference because I've also scalded milk on the stove -- same taste.
- Retric 2y ago
  Milk from lower yield cows doesn’t inherently taste different, there’s a wider range of breeds but you can get identical tasting milk from low yield cows. There’s several other ways milk tends to be worse but the primary issue is simply age. It can be a long time between when a cow is milked and when you’re adding milk to your morning cereal. Which then requires various compromises in the final product.
- rmosolgo 2y ago
  > low efficiency cows Interestingly, the "alternative" breeds I'm familiar with are marketed as _high_ efficiency because they produce milk on very little input (all or mostly grass; very little corn and soy). For example: https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/ https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/
- dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
  >Indeed, most of the "milk" you buy in large industrial countries barely deserves the term - it's got no taste or subtle flavor. Not only true for milk, but for virtually any food: vegetables, eggs, meat etc.
  - voidfunc 2y ago
    Most people just don't care. Food is energy and it needs to be cheap. Worrying about taste is a privileged concern. It's for most people, "good enough".
    - Scoundreller 2y ago
      That's why I garden for flavour. I'd die if I depended on it for calories.
  - Maxion 2y ago
    Taste is one thing, the nutrient content also differs. In dairy and meat the fatty acid profile is different based on the animals feed and breed, in vegetables it depends on the plants growing conditions and variety. Modern varieties optimize for simple KPIs, but lack nutrients. A modern grocery store tomate will have the same amount of nutrients as a smaller older variety, but since the older variety is smaller you will end up eating more tomatoes and have a more nutritious diet.
    - dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
      >Taste is one thing, the nutrient content also differs. Also the water content. The highly 'productive' varieties/methods have a lot more water compared to the traditionally grow varieties/methods.
- calmbonsai 2y ago
  I grew up with a family garden and a father who bow-hunted, fished, and worked at various levels of "industrialization" in food industry throughout his career. As a kid, I thought _everyone_ had chest-freezers of trotters, bluegill, crappie, and venison in the basement. ;) There's simply no other way to get that many calories out to the masses and we've had multiple generations of "masses" raised on artificial consistency and engineered taste. Ignorance is bliss. Fresh food is also bliss. "Really good noodles" "Which is why chicken tastes like everything" "A single cell protein combined with vitamins and minerals" For many sound reasons, we're living in a blue-pill world, but try to take the red-pill whenever you get the chance. It's worth it.
why_only_15 2y ago
Fantastic article. I didn't realize dairy cows lactated ~60lbs/day or ~3.5% of their body weight. Totally insane. Chickens appear to be this way too -- from some quick research Rhode Island Reds are ~3kg, lay ~300 eggs/year and each egg is ~62g. The graph at the end ("US milk yield continues to grow, but falls short of its genetic potential") is interesting. If I saw that graph, I would interpret it as dairy farmers overfitting on the genetic yield potential measure, not as something that needs explanations like climate change.
- O5vYtytb 2y ago
  I think the second paragraph is poorly written > America’s cows are now extraordinarily productive. In 2024, just 9.3 million cows will produce 226 billion pounds of milk (about 100 million tons) – enough milk to provide ten percent of 333 million insatiable Americans’ diets, and export for good measure. Is that all the cows in the US? Why tell us how many cows produce 10 percent of demand?
  - why_only_15 2y ago
    What he means is that 10M cows, all the cows in the US, produce dairy products that are 10% of calories in US diets.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  > I didn't realize dairy cows lactated ~60lbs/day or ~3.5% of their body weight. Totally insane. I'd temper that a little bit by noting that milk is largely (~90%) water by weight.
  - why_only_15 2y ago
    True, though it's still enough nutrients to feed three people's entire caloric needs.
- wappieslurkz 2y ago
  Imagine the suffering at the animals' side....
zelcon 2y ago
Future headline: How big data helped the shoggoths get a 6x yield increase in training data tokens from pasture humans
rmosolgo 2y ago
Meanwhile, there's been an alternative storyline prioritizing other goals: low maintenance, high fertility, good yield on a grass-based or all-grass diet, high portion of milk solids. These genetics are also available on ice, for example, from New Zealand: https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/ https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/ Nearish to me, there's a world-class cheese dairy that's making it work: https://www.meadowcreekdairy.com/herd https://www.meadowcreekdairy.com/herd At my farm, I milk three cows from that herd and distribute the milk and cheese to family, friends, and neighbors. We all agree it's delicious but it's hard to say whether it's the breed, the diet, or the freshness.
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Fingers crossed big data manages to obsolete it next. I'm so ready for milk from gmo microbes (mostly for cheese and ice cream purposes).
drewm1980 2y ago
I put whipped soy milk on my vegan homemade pumpkin pie last night and it was great. Do not miss dairy, and am thankful for modern food innovations that are helping us get past the suffering and environmental devastation of dairy.
- sbmthakur 2y ago
  Dairy is the only thing keeping me away from going vegan. Can't really eliminate Whey protein, tea/coffee with milk (it's just a quarter of a cup). Would appreciate pointers if anyone did substitute those.
  - sigilis 2y ago
    Why bother? You’ve already made the most significant changes in your life by cutting down your reliance on animal agriculture to a quarter cup of milk and some whey. If it’s for some kind of ideological purity thing, it’s probably not worth it. But if you must… oat milk for coffee is my preference, and pea protein for whey.
  - AnonC 2y ago
    There is no dearth of information on this online, but it’s better that you try it yourself. At the beginning of every year, there’s a whole month (January) devoted to trying vegan. It’s called Veganuary. You can sign up on the site [1] for what to try, alternatives to use, etc. I would also strongly recommend looking for vegan groups wherever you live. Joining a local community and getting support can be helpful. [1]: https://veganuary.com/ https://veganuary.com/
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    If you tried some grain milk and they didn’t fit you taste, maybe have a go with a "barista" one or any other with extra fat, they tends to be a bit more creamy. Pea and soy protein are also complete and quite cheap. The hardest part for me wasn’t to remove the obvious diary (milk in coffee, yogourts, cheese…) but the many form of processed milk present anywhere in processed but also traditional dishes.
- 2y ago

48 points by surprisetalk 2y ago

There is no way the 6x yield increase per cow did not negatively affect the taste, nutrition, and quality of the milk. Indeed, most of the "milk" you buy in large industrial countries barely deserves the term - it's got no taste or subtle flavor. It's even worse regarding derived butters and cheeses. Yield is a great and easy thing to optimize becuase it's easy to measure. And if you increase yield at the expense of taste at suffiently slow rate, the change is impercetible to the customer. Happens slowly over decades so that a nice glass of milk is now like drinking dirty wash water. And a nice fat steak becomes ground up crickets and synthetics. Moral of the story. Get your own low efficiency cows.

WorkerBee28474 2y ago
I've had milk from a cow not bred for increased yield (Hereford). It was unremarkable.
- fellowniusmonk 2y ago
  Yeah, I know it's a bit hyperbolic but high end milk and eggs seem like the Monster HDMI Cable of food goods. Some cow breeds have a high milk fat content and if you drink that un-homegenized you can tell, but once the milk fat is normalized I can't tell a difference. I can tell a much bigger difference between vat and HT pasteurization. Same with eggs, sure high omega three eggs have a yolk that is more orange but unless your doing a back to back comparison on a a very runny soft boil yolk you really can't tell a difference in flavor. If the egg is an ingredient the difference becomes completely undetectable. I think these types of "steps" removed products like eggs and milk have a much narrower band of quality than people think. These biologically manufactured products just don't seem to be as directly effected by inputs as the organisms themselves.
  - KennyBlanken 2y ago
    I buy "high end" eggs not because they're better for me, but because there were fewer or less toxic pesticides put into the environment to produce feed for it, and there's less chance the chicken spent its entire life in a cage so small it can barely move (or on the floor of a barn so packed that, again, it can barely move.) That's the straw-man people who attack organic food buyers with. "You silly libtard, buying organics because you think it's better for you!" Nope. It's only partially about my health. In the case of a lot of organic produce, it's more about my not wanting to support industry growers whose field workers are exposed to incredible levels of pesticides. There are exceptions. Canadian grain for example, which farmers drench in pesticides using them as a drying agent to reduce spoilage rates. They take advantage of reduced regulations around pesticide residue that was pushed through by lobbyists hired by Canadian grain producers. So, I will not buy any grain based products that aren't organic. I also won't buy non-organic spices or teas. Turns out that a lot of non-organic spices - like cinnamon - have very high levels of lead, but the organic versions have much less, or none: https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/high-lead-levels-in-cinnamon-powders-and-spice-mixtures-a4542246475/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/hig... What is particularly scary: a producer who sells in bulk targeting the restaurant industry (Badia) was one of the higher levels tested. Anything made with central/south american fruit puree? Organic only. Why? Producers used to spike the weight of their shipments with lead in the bottom of the containers. The lead would then go through the processing machinery. Result? Huge numbers of latino kids getting extreme lead poisoning. I won't buy any central/south american produced candy period, because manufacturers like to print the labels with lead-containing inks among other problems, and they repeatedly test high for lead, have for decades, because those governments don't care or are being bribed: https://www.nmhealth.org/publication/view/help/2154/ https://www.nmhealth.org/publication/view/help/2154/
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      Organic farming uses larger amounts of less effective poisons. Modern poisons are highly targeted and require smaller amounts. Typically they target disruption of metabolic pathways that are specific to plants.
    - 2y ago
why_only_15 2y ago
those cows probably still exist right? you can still get milk from them. Do they taste better?
- gavindean90 2y ago
  Yes, but because of the way that the milk industry is shaped in the US it’s exceedingly hard to get and many people are afraid of it.
  - gr3ml1n 2y ago
    You're conflating some sort of heritage cow breed with raw milk. It's being intentionally misleading.
    - gavindean90 2y ago
      I was because I can’t imagine somehow finding a heritage cow breed pasteurization group here in the US.
  - why_only_15 2y ago
    What is this typically called? Are you referring to raw milk? I think this is a different thing.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Raw milk isn’t inherently more flavorful than pasteurized. It’s by necessity consumed sooner which enhances the flavor profile vs milk that’s spent weeks going through the typical logistics chain before you buy it. But, the safety concerns are significant and you could also get pasteurized milk that isn’t particularly old.
      - rmosolgo 2y ago
        I've been drinking raw milk almost exclusively for about 5 years (and milking my own cows for the last 1.5 years). Whenever I get store-bought milk, I'm hit by the "cooked" flavor of it. I assume it's the pasteurization that makes the difference because I've also scalded milk on the stove -- same taste.
Retric 2y ago
Milk from lower yield cows doesn’t inherently taste different, there’s a wider range of breeds but you can get identical tasting milk from low yield cows. There’s several other ways milk tends to be worse but the primary issue is simply age. It can be a long time between when a cow is milked and when you’re adding milk to your morning cereal. Which then requires various compromises in the final product.
rmosolgo 2y ago
> low efficiency cows Interestingly, the "alternative" breeds I'm familiar with are marketed as _high_ efficiency because they produce milk on very little input (all or mostly grass; very little corn and soy). For example: https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/ https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
>Indeed, most of the "milk" you buy in large industrial countries barely deserves the term - it's got no taste or subtle flavor. Not only true for milk, but for virtually any food: vegetables, eggs, meat etc.
- voidfunc 2y ago
  Most people just don't care. Food is energy and it needs to be cheap. Worrying about taste is a privileged concern. It's for most people, "good enough".
  - Scoundreller 2y ago
    That's why I garden for flavour. I'd die if I depended on it for calories.
- Maxion 2y ago
  Taste is one thing, the nutrient content also differs. In dairy and meat the fatty acid profile is different based on the animals feed and breed, in vegetables it depends on the plants growing conditions and variety. Modern varieties optimize for simple KPIs, but lack nutrients. A modern grocery store tomate will have the same amount of nutrients as a smaller older variety, but since the older variety is smaller you will end up eating more tomatoes and have a more nutritious diet.
  - dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
    >Taste is one thing, the nutrient content also differs. Also the water content. The highly 'productive' varieties/methods have a lot more water compared to the traditionally grow varieties/methods.
calmbonsai 2y ago
I grew up with a family garden and a father who bow-hunted, fished, and worked at various levels of "industrialization" in food industry throughout his career. As a kid, I thought _everyone_ had chest-freezers of trotters, bluegill, crappie, and venison in the basement. ;) There's simply no other way to get that many calories out to the masses and we've had multiple generations of "masses" raised on artificial consistency and engineered taste. Ignorance is bliss. Fresh food is also bliss. "Really good noodles" "Which is why chicken tastes like everything" "A single cell protein combined with vitamins and minerals" For many sound reasons, we're living in a blue-pill world, but try to take the red-pill whenever you get the chance. It's worth it.

why_only_15 2y ago

Fantastic article. I didn't realize dairy cows lactated ~60lbs/day or ~3.5% of their body weight. Totally insane. Chickens appear to be this way too -- from some quick research Rhode Island Reds are ~3kg, lay ~300 eggs/year and each egg is ~62g. The graph at the end ("US milk yield continues to grow, but falls short of its genetic potential") is interesting. If I saw that graph, I would interpret it as dairy farmers overfitting on the genetic yield potential measure, not as something that needs explanations like climate change.

O5vYtytb 2y ago
I think the second paragraph is poorly written > America’s cows are now extraordinarily productive. In 2024, just 9.3 million cows will produce 226 billion pounds of milk (about 100 million tons) – enough milk to provide ten percent of 333 million insatiable Americans’ diets, and export for good measure. Is that all the cows in the US? Why tell us how many cows produce 10 percent of demand?
- why_only_15 2y ago
  What he means is that 10M cows, all the cows in the US, produce dairy products that are 10% of calories in US diets.
Terr_ 2y ago
> I didn't realize dairy cows lactated ~60lbs/day or ~3.5% of their body weight. Totally insane. I'd temper that a little bit by noting that milk is largely (~90%) water by weight.
- why_only_15 2y ago
  True, though it's still enough nutrients to feed three people's entire caloric needs.
wappieslurkz 2y ago
Imagine the suffering at the animals' side....

zelcon 2y ago

Future headline: How big data helped the shoggoths get a 6x yield increase in training data tokens from pasture humans

rmosolgo 2y ago

Meanwhile, there's been an alternative storyline prioritizing other goals: low maintenance, high fertility, good yield on a grass-based or all-grass diet, high portion of milk solids. These genetics are also available on ice, for example, from New Zealand: https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/ https://licnz.com/products-services/lic-cow-breeds/ Nearish to me, there's a world-class cheese dairy that's making it work: https://www.meadowcreekdairy.com/herd https://www.meadowcreekdairy.com/herd At my farm, I milk three cows from that herd and distribute the milk and cheese to family, friends, and neighbors. We all agree it's delicious but it's hard to say whether it's the breed, the diet, or the freshness.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

Fingers crossed big data manages to obsolete it next. I'm so ready for milk from gmo microbes (mostly for cheese and ice cream purposes).

drewm1980 2y ago

I put whipped soy milk on my vegan homemade pumpkin pie last night and it was great. Do not miss dairy, and am thankful for modern food innovations that are helping us get past the suffering and environmental devastation of dairy.

sbmthakur 2y ago
Dairy is the only thing keeping me away from going vegan. Can't really eliminate Whey protein, tea/coffee with milk (it's just a quarter of a cup). Would appreciate pointers if anyone did substitute those.
- sigilis 2y ago
  Why bother? You’ve already made the most significant changes in your life by cutting down your reliance on animal agriculture to a quarter cup of milk and some whey. If it’s for some kind of ideological purity thing, it’s probably not worth it. But if you must… oat milk for coffee is my preference, and pea protein for whey.
- AnonC 2y ago
  There is no dearth of information on this online, but it’s better that you try it yourself. At the beginning of every year, there’s a whole month (January) devoted to trying vegan. It’s called Veganuary. You can sign up on the site [1] for what to try, alternatives to use, etc. I would also strongly recommend looking for vegan groups wherever you live. Joining a local community and getting support can be helpful. [1]: https://veganuary.com/ https://veganuary.com/
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  If you tried some grain milk and they didn’t fit you taste, maybe have a go with a "barista" one or any other with extra fat, they tends to be a bit more creamy. Pea and soy protein are also complete and quite cheap. The hardest part for me wasn’t to remove the obvious diary (milk in coffee, yogourts, cheese…) but the many form of processed milk present anywhere in processed but also traditional dishes.
2y ago