16 ms·

Eyes Wide Shut: Hidden in plain sight

128 points by jim-jim-jim 2y ago

Mistletoe 2y ago
I never grow tired of this movie and think it is a complete masterpiece. I feel like I'm on another planet when people don't like it. And most people don't like it. :) It's such a bizarre wonderful dreamworld of the human psyche that Kubrick created. Like if Kubrick made a Fellini film.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  > most people don't like it That sounds like a recommendation! After reading: > Kubrick was perhaps the world's most successful maker of mainstream art films. I'd had a vision of Kubrick as the Thomas Kinkade of the 7th art, which luckily was quickly dissipated by: > He found a way—like few before him or since—to make interpretive movies that are commercially successful in popular culture while simultaneously appealing to cult film audiences, intellectuals and academics, cinephiles, critics, artists, and fellow filmmakers.
  - browningstreet 2y ago
    I could write a thousand words but I’ll just write: Kubrick isn’t a Kinkade.
    - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
      Yes; different media entirely.
  - paradox242 2y ago
    Have you... never seen a Kubrick film? That's seems wild to me, but probably that's becoming more a generational thing than anything else.
- throw_pm23 2y ago
  The atmosphere of the movie is amazing, as you say. But the storyline in the end seems not to tie together, and not in the intentional way like, e.g., a David Lynch movie would mess with the story on purpose, but in the sense that "we had this much footage when the director died, so we had to put together what we had and call it a day". Still one of my favorite movies though.
  - freejazz 2y ago
    You should really rewatch the film if you think it doesn't come together in the end. What explanation are you looking for that was missing?
    - throw_pm23 2y ago
      Yeah, will definitely rewatch. I vaguely remember that it felt a bit arbitrary in the end what happened with the pianist "nick nightingale". I read in Roger Ebert's review, that he would have enjoyed a twist in the end, where Bill would notice the body of nick being pushed out on a bed on a hospital corridor, adding some more doubt about what has really happened. (I vaguely remember some bigshot has promised Bill that Nick was fine.)
      - freejazz 2y ago
        I don't want to give things away, but we know Nick gets taken by the bad guys. I'm not sure what visually confirming that would do. Regardless, imo, the point of the movie isn't really to factually confirm those various issues, but how rattled Bill is from it all. If you read the article they place on the screen twice, it's filled with these double words and sentences, all clearly referential to elements of the film. I used to think it was Kubrick "trying to tell us something" but these days I take them more as Bill's incoherent approach to the world around him as he's on day 3 of his bender, i.e. the words and phrases are doubled up because he can't see straight anymore, his dreams are blending into his life (just as his life blended into his dreams).
      - djkivi 2y ago
        That prick piano player Nick Nightingale ended up making some interesting movies of his own.
- nntwozz 2y ago
  It has 7.5 on IMDb, most people seem to like it (I give it an 8). https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120663/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rat https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120663/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rat
- klik99 2y ago
  I hated it on first watch, when it came out, due to expecting something different. Now I absolutely love it. I get why people don’t like it, like how Tom Cruise goes around almost but never actually having sex, the movie always hints at a satisfying wrap up but never delivers it, which is totally intentional. It works with many different interpretations, you can read it through cultural, psychological, and probably other lenses. Still I’m wary of talking about it since it’s probably too effective at portraying a paranoid mindset.
- pimeys 2y ago
  I saw it in the theaters in 1999, I was a huge Kubrick fan, 15 years old and I hated the movie. After two divorces, I watched it again and totally understood the whole thing. It is a great movie. Still, my favorite is Barry Lyndon...
  - nwienert 2y ago
    Barry Lyndon is sublime.
- JadeNB 2y ago
  > It's such a bizarre wonderful dreamworld of the human psyche that Kubrick created. Like if Kubrick made a Fellini film. Of course The Shining shows that what Kubrick makes of a novel is not necessarily what the author made, but it's probably worth giving some credit for the dreamworld to Schnitzler—the novel is literally called, or so Wikipedia tells me it translates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story), Dream Story.
- shadowerm 2y ago
  I will have to watch it again. I only watched it once when it came out, at a time when Clockwork Orange was my favorite movie. I remember it being beautiful and interesting visually(and of course the incredible backwards opera music ritual scene) while missing the plot so completely after reading this article and some of the comments.
MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
[flagged]
- pavl- 2y ago
  Do you think a movie where the main character is driven to madness at the site of a Native American burial ground/frontier wars is not purposefully introducing this subtext or do you not like the language that the author used?
  - The_Blade 2y ago
    That is very valid subtext but I also believe Stephen King was wigging out detoxing from booze and blow with his family in CO and remember some Bradbury he read. Both can be true. King was so good he doesn't remember writing Cujo like Bowie doesn't remember recording Station to Station Eyes Wide Shut is visually captivating string theory goodness - you can lose your mind over the rainbow right quick - but also I think Arthur Schnitzler wanted a little taste of that hot secret pre-WWI Vienna action that he'd never get (I'm all about that fallacy of authorial intent).
    - pavl- 2y ago
      Most or all mentions of Native Americans were introduced by Kubrick and absent in King's original
    - freejazz 2y ago
      > Stephen King Would be good commentary for his version of of the film
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
benbojangles 2y ago
The abduction of cruise and Kidmans daughter at the end is one interesting reference to some sordid things. But I did not see the article reference the op-art painting above the daughters (helena) bed providing another secret reference to something sinister. I recall Kubrick being bothered by the heavy censorship and editing by the UK film board, I wonder if we will ever get to see those removed scenes, what, and why they were removed etc. Kubrick died within a week of the film release, perhaps he knew too much, perhaps not. Maybe prince Andrew did go to Pizza Express.
- dh2022 2y ago
  And the sinister message above Helena’s bed is hidden in plain sight. It would fit the article very well. I guess the article author was not aware of this.
  - benbojangles 2y ago
    I believe Op-Art and other instance were embedded into eyes wide shut as a precautionary move to still get the message out in the event of censorship
- throw646577 2y ago
  > I recall Kubrick being bothered by the heavy censorship and editing by the UK film board, I wonder if we will ever get to see those removed scenes, what, and why they were removed etc. I don't believe Kubrick had particular problems with the British Board of Film Censors. The BBFC never censored A Clockwork Orange, for example. They passed it without cuts, though they had seen a pre-print of the first completed half of the movie as was the custom, and had been concerned that it might not get certification. The censor commended the final movie. Kubrick personally pulled it from distribution in the UK, after they had passed it and it had a limited release. https://www.bbfc.co.uk/education/case-studies/clockwork-orange https://www.bbfc.co.uk/education/case-studies/clockwork-oran... The BBFC do not and did not edit films. They are not a government body. They did once call themselves censors (the words of the acronym changed in the 80s), but the point of the BBFC was that the film industry was censoring its own work proactively, and maintaining their own certifications, to avoid government doing it. Similar to what the MPA(A) did. They still sometimes suggest edits that would keep a film within a particular certification. In the case of Eyes Wide Shut, it wasn't the BBFC that made any decisions to edit and cut that film; Warner Bros themselves did, based on the US classification they were aiming for. > Kubrick died within a week of the film release, perhaps he knew too much, perhaps not. Or perhaps, after a stressful filming, editing and production schedule, a 70 year old man had a heart attack in his sleep.
mugwumprk 2y ago
I read a lot of this, had to stop. In a way, it's like the film itself. It has a lot of words, a lot of details, and it seems to mean something. But at the end, it really doesn't amount to much. "Mulholland Drive" was a much more effective comment on wealth, power, and misogyny.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  > But at the end, it really doesn't amount to much. Idk the rampant pedophilia in the movie certainly rhymes with revelations about Epstein.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general. So much child abuse.
  - julianeon 2y ago
    I think it is implied that conspiracy theories involving Epstein don't amount to much either. That whole approach doesn't amount to much.
  - dh2022 2y ago
    I am travelling now but after reading this article (and the comments) I will re-watch EWS again. If you do not mind - can you please point some examples of rampart pedophilia in the movie? I did not make this connection so far. But after reading this article I realized how much I was missing. Thanks!
- jFatFinger 2y ago
  That is because it was heavy edited by the studio after directors death and no where near the original cut. In original ending they actually give their daughter to the cult so they can be members.
baruchthescribe 2y ago
I agree with this analyst here that Dr Bill traverses the 33 degrees of the Scottish Rite: https://33degreesofeyeswideshut.wordpress.com/ https://33degreesofeyeswideshut.wordpress.com/
- KingFelix 2y ago
  That was a rabbit hole
  - freejazz 2y ago
    That's THE rabbit hole
- djaouen 2y ago
  I only read what was written to 15, plenty for my mind to chew over (for now). Certainly Logical!
dcl 2y ago
I watched this just the other day (as a joke Christmas film) after having not seen it for about 10-12 years. It's waaaay better than I remember and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Definitely hits a bit different after Epstein. The Very Bad Wizards podcast on it is interesting/fun too. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/very-bad-orgies-kubricks-eyes-wide-shut/id557975157?i=1000570507256 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/very-bad-orgies-kubric...
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
iknownthing 2y ago
What I never understood about this movie is how it never connected the pieces. The beginning of the movie when bill was with the drunk women and they say "where the rainbow ends..." it clearly connects to the "rainbow" costume shop later where the sinister stuff with the owners child happens. Then it's learned that the women at the beginning of the movie were the same women who were at the secret society party this clearly connects the secret society to the sinister stuff at the costume shop. So the connections are clear and bill is privy to all of it yet it is never explicitly stated at the end of the movie. Perhaps Kubrick didn't actually finish it.
- AJRF 2y ago
  The costume shop owners daughter whispers “you should get a cloak lined with ermine” suggesting she (an underage girl) knows where Bill is going (the mansion party). It feels like there’s at least one scene missing that ties that together a bit less subtly.
- baobun 2y ago
  This is very much on-style both for dream movies in general (ever watched anything Lynch/Tarkovsky/Fellini?) and Kubrick. The connections are supposed to happen in your mind. Their significance is up to you. Related Kubrick quote from TFA: > One of the things I always find extremely difficult, when a picture's finished, is when a writer or a film reviewer asks, "Now, what is it that you were trying to say in that picture?" And without being thought too presumptuous for using this analogy, I like to remember what T.S. Eliot said to someone who had asked him—I believe it was The Waste Land—what he meant by the poem. He replied, "I meant what I said." If I could have said it any differently, I would have. ("The Odyssey Begins", 1960 Horizon interview) Spelling everything out for the (supposedly dim-witted) audience at the close is, reversely, something that frustrates me.
  - iknownthing 2y ago
    I get that but it doesn't even make sense in terms of the dream logic. Bill basically has two "confession" scenes - one with Zeigler and one with his wife and seemingly doesn't mention the stuff at the costume shop in either. However he was open to confess to Zeigler that he knew about the dead woman. This seems contradictory. I think there are two possibilities 1) it was unfinished or 2) it was intentionally left out. Both of which are very interesting.
bapo 2y ago
Slightly OT. Still remember reading the book the movie is based on: “Traumnovelle” by Arthur Schnitzler. Having read this during high school and also AFTER seeing the movie adaption, iirc the closing conversation vary by quite a bit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story
tucnak 2y ago
Zizek's analysis on the object-desire substitutions in films (including Eyes Wide Shut, but also notably other classics) is more eloquent. This blog post reads like bad, talentless undergrad attempt at theory; nothing new is said, predicates are boring, conclusions are lazy and superficial.
djkivi 2y ago
Another interesting analysis of EWS is https://timkreider.com/introducing-sociology/ https://timkreider.com/introducing-sociology/

128 points by jim-jim-jim 2y ago

I never grow tired of this movie and think it is a complete masterpiece. I feel like I'm on another planet when people don't like it. And most people don't like it. :) It's such a bizarre wonderful dreamworld of the human psyche that Kubrick created. Like if Kubrick made a Fellini film.

082349872349872 2y ago
> most people don't like it That sounds like a recommendation! After reading: > Kubrick was perhaps the world's most successful maker of mainstream art films. I'd had a vision of Kubrick as the Thomas Kinkade of the 7th art, which luckily was quickly dissipated by: > He found a way—like few before him or since—to make interpretive movies that are commercially successful in popular culture while simultaneously appealing to cult film audiences, intellectuals and academics, cinephiles, critics, artists, and fellow filmmakers.
- browningstreet 2y ago
  I could write a thousand words but I’ll just write: Kubrick isn’t a Kinkade.
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    Yes; different media entirely.
- paradox242 2y ago
  Have you... never seen a Kubrick film? That's seems wild to me, but probably that's becoming more a generational thing than anything else.
throw_pm23 2y ago
The atmosphere of the movie is amazing, as you say. But the storyline in the end seems not to tie together, and not in the intentional way like, e.g., a David Lynch movie would mess with the story on purpose, but in the sense that "we had this much footage when the director died, so we had to put together what we had and call it a day". Still one of my favorite movies though.
- freejazz 2y ago
  You should really rewatch the film if you think it doesn't come together in the end. What explanation are you looking for that was missing?
  - throw_pm23 2y ago
    Yeah, will definitely rewatch. I vaguely remember that it felt a bit arbitrary in the end what happened with the pianist "nick nightingale". I read in Roger Ebert's review, that he would have enjoyed a twist in the end, where Bill would notice the body of nick being pushed out on a bed on a hospital corridor, adding some more doubt about what has really happened. (I vaguely remember some bigshot has promised Bill that Nick was fine.)
    - freejazz 2y ago
      I don't want to give things away, but we know Nick gets taken by the bad guys. I'm not sure what visually confirming that would do. Regardless, imo, the point of the movie isn't really to factually confirm those various issues, but how rattled Bill is from it all. If you read the article they place on the screen twice, it's filled with these double words and sentences, all clearly referential to elements of the film. I used to think it was Kubrick "trying to tell us something" but these days I take them more as Bill's incoherent approach to the world around him as he's on day 3 of his bender, i.e. the words and phrases are doubled up because he can't see straight anymore, his dreams are blending into his life (just as his life blended into his dreams).
    - djkivi 2y ago
      That prick piano player Nick Nightingale ended up making some interesting movies of his own.
nntwozz 2y ago
It has 7.5 on IMDb, most people seem to like it (I give it an 8). https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120663/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rat https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120663/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rat
klik99 2y ago
I hated it on first watch, when it came out, due to expecting something different. Now I absolutely love it. I get why people don’t like it, like how Tom Cruise goes around almost but never actually having sex, the movie always hints at a satisfying wrap up but never delivers it, which is totally intentional. It works with many different interpretations, you can read it through cultural, psychological, and probably other lenses. Still I’m wary of talking about it since it’s probably too effective at portraying a paranoid mindset.
pimeys 2y ago
I saw it in the theaters in 1999, I was a huge Kubrick fan, 15 years old and I hated the movie. After two divorces, I watched it again and totally understood the whole thing. It is a great movie. Still, my favorite is Barry Lyndon...
- nwienert 2y ago
  Barry Lyndon is sublime.
JadeNB 2y ago
> It's such a bizarre wonderful dreamworld of the human psyche that Kubrick created. Like if Kubrick made a Fellini film. Of course The Shining shows that what Kubrick makes of a novel is not necessarily what the author made, but it's probably worth giving some credit for the dreamworld to Schnitzler—the novel is literally called, or so Wikipedia tells me it translates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story), Dream Story.
shadowerm 2y ago
I will have to watch it again. I only watched it once when it came out, at a time when Clockwork Orange was my favorite movie. I remember it being beautiful and interesting visually(and of course the incredible backwards opera music ritual scene) while missing the plot so completely after reading this article and some of the comments.

MrBuddyCasino 2y ago

[flagged]

pavl- 2y ago
Do you think a movie where the main character is driven to madness at the site of a Native American burial ground/frontier wars is not purposefully introducing this subtext or do you not like the language that the author used?
- The_Blade 2y ago
  That is very valid subtext but I also believe Stephen King was wigging out detoxing from booze and blow with his family in CO and remember some Bradbury he read. Both can be true. King was so good he doesn't remember writing Cujo like Bowie doesn't remember recording Station to Station Eyes Wide Shut is visually captivating string theory goodness - you can lose your mind over the rainbow right quick - but also I think Arthur Schnitzler wanted a little taste of that hot secret pre-WWI Vienna action that he'd never get (I'm all about that fallacy of authorial intent).
  - pavl- 2y ago
    Most or all mentions of Native Americans were introduced by Kubrick and absent in King's original
  - freejazz 2y ago
    > Stephen King Would be good commentary for his version of of the film

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

benbojangles 2y ago

The abduction of cruise and Kidmans daughter at the end is one interesting reference to some sordid things. But I did not see the article reference the op-art painting above the daughters (helena) bed providing another secret reference to something sinister. I recall Kubrick being bothered by the heavy censorship and editing by the UK film board, I wonder if we will ever get to see those removed scenes, what, and why they were removed etc. Kubrick died within a week of the film release, perhaps he knew too much, perhaps not. Maybe prince Andrew did go to Pizza Express.

dh2022 2y ago
And the sinister message above Helena’s bed is hidden in plain sight. It would fit the article very well. I guess the article author was not aware of this.
- benbojangles 2y ago
  I believe Op-Art and other instance were embedded into eyes wide shut as a precautionary move to still get the message out in the event of censorship
throw646577 2y ago
> I recall Kubrick being bothered by the heavy censorship and editing by the UK film board, I wonder if we will ever get to see those removed scenes, what, and why they were removed etc. I don't believe Kubrick had particular problems with the British Board of Film Censors. The BBFC never censored A Clockwork Orange, for example. They passed it without cuts, though they had seen a pre-print of the first completed half of the movie as was the custom, and had been concerned that it might not get certification. The censor commended the final movie. Kubrick personally pulled it from distribution in the UK, after they had passed it and it had a limited release. https://www.bbfc.co.uk/education/case-studies/clockwork-orange https://www.bbfc.co.uk/education/case-studies/clockwork-oran... The BBFC do not and did not edit films. They are not a government body. They did once call themselves censors (the words of the acronym changed in the 80s), but the point of the BBFC was that the film industry was censoring its own work proactively, and maintaining their own certifications, to avoid government doing it. Similar to what the MPA(A) did. They still sometimes suggest edits that would keep a film within a particular certification. In the case of Eyes Wide Shut, it wasn't the BBFC that made any decisions to edit and cut that film; Warner Bros themselves did, based on the US classification they were aiming for. > Kubrick died within a week of the film release, perhaps he knew too much, perhaps not. Or perhaps, after a stressful filming, editing and production schedule, a 70 year old man had a heart attack in his sleep.

mugwumprk 2y ago

I read a lot of this, had to stop. In a way, it's like the film itself. It has a lot of words, a lot of details, and it seems to mean something. But at the end, it really doesn't amount to much. "Mulholland Drive" was a much more effective comment on wealth, power, and misogyny.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
> But at the end, it really doesn't amount to much. Idk the rampant pedophilia in the movie certainly rhymes with revelations about Epstein.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general. So much child abuse.
- julianeon 2y ago
  I think it is implied that conspiracy theories involving Epstein don't amount to much either. That whole approach doesn't amount to much.
- dh2022 2y ago
  I am travelling now but after reading this article (and the comments) I will re-watch EWS again. If you do not mind - can you please point some examples of rampart pedophilia in the movie? I did not make this connection so far. But after reading this article I realized how much I was missing. Thanks!
jFatFinger 2y ago
That is because it was heavy edited by the studio after directors death and no where near the original cut. In original ending they actually give their daughter to the cult so they can be members.

baruchthescribe 2y ago

I agree with this analyst here that Dr Bill traverses the 33 degrees of the Scottish Rite: https://33degreesofeyeswideshut.wordpress.com/ https://33degreesofeyeswideshut.wordpress.com/

KingFelix 2y ago
That was a rabbit hole
- freejazz 2y ago
  That's THE rabbit hole
djaouen 2y ago
I only read what was written to 15, plenty for my mind to chew over (for now). Certainly Logical!

dcl 2y ago

I watched this just the other day (as a joke Christmas film) after having not seen it for about 10-12 years. It's waaaay better than I remember and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Definitely hits a bit different after Epstein. The Very Bad Wizards podcast on it is interesting/fun too. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/very-bad-orgies-kubricks-eyes-wide-shut/id557975157?i=1000570507256 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/very-bad-orgies-kubric...

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

iknownthing 2y ago

What I never understood about this movie is how it never connected the pieces. The beginning of the movie when bill was with the drunk women and they say "where the rainbow ends..." it clearly connects to the "rainbow" costume shop later where the sinister stuff with the owners child happens. Then it's learned that the women at the beginning of the movie were the same women who were at the secret society party this clearly connects the secret society to the sinister stuff at the costume shop. So the connections are clear and bill is privy to all of it yet it is never explicitly stated at the end of the movie. Perhaps Kubrick didn't actually finish it.

AJRF 2y ago
The costume shop owners daughter whispers “you should get a cloak lined with ermine” suggesting she (an underage girl) knows where Bill is going (the mansion party). It feels like there’s at least one scene missing that ties that together a bit less subtly.
baobun 2y ago
This is very much on-style both for dream movies in general (ever watched anything Lynch/Tarkovsky/Fellini?) and Kubrick. The connections are supposed to happen in your mind. Their significance is up to you. Related Kubrick quote from TFA: > One of the things I always find extremely difficult, when a picture's finished, is when a writer or a film reviewer asks, "Now, what is it that you were trying to say in that picture?" And without being thought too presumptuous for using this analogy, I like to remember what T.S. Eliot said to someone who had asked him—I believe it was The Waste Land—what he meant by the poem. He replied, "I meant what I said." If I could have said it any differently, I would have. ("The Odyssey Begins", 1960 Horizon interview) Spelling everything out for the (supposedly dim-witted) audience at the close is, reversely, something that frustrates me.
- iknownthing 2y ago
  I get that but it doesn't even make sense in terms of the dream logic. Bill basically has two "confession" scenes - one with Zeigler and one with his wife and seemingly doesn't mention the stuff at the costume shop in either. However he was open to confess to Zeigler that he knew about the dead woman. This seems contradictory. I think there are two possibilities 1) it was unfinished or 2) it was intentionally left out. Both of which are very interesting.

bapo 2y ago

Slightly OT. Still remember reading the book the movie is based on: “Traumnovelle” by Arthur Schnitzler. Having read this during high school and also AFTER seeing the movie adaption, iirc the closing conversation vary by quite a bit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story

tucnak 2y ago

Zizek's analysis on the object-desire substitutions in films (including Eyes Wide Shut, but also notably other classics) is more eloquent. This blog post reads like bad, talentless undergrad attempt at theory; nothing new is said, predicates are boring, conclusions are lazy and superficial.

djkivi 2y ago

Another interesting analysis of EWS is https://timkreider.com/introducing-sociology/ https://timkreider.com/introducing-sociology/